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Old 13-02-2012, 17:54   #91
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Originally Posted by Sovereigndreams View Post
I am still interested in hearing stories about actual incidents when your diesel prevented a major catastrophe.
.
On the way back from the keys last year there was a north component to the wind all the way. We basically motored home. 40 hrs +. About 30 gals of diesel.

Without getting home like that it would have been a catastophe I can assure you.
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Old 13-02-2012, 17:59   #92
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Originally Posted by kefroeschner View Post

The comment about turbines is right on target. When will e able to buy the equivalent of a small Honda gas generator with a turbine (one moving part) instead of all the clap-trap junk of the Otto-cycle piston engine?

I would like to have one of those.

Assuming the bugs have been eaten by others before me. I'm kinda chicken in the wallet dept.
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:14   #93
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

I am all for electric hybrid propulsion but for long passages it just is not cost effective. Look at the Lagoon 420 hybrid. I know it was a flawed system to begin with but they are now five years and three versions into this system and owners are still converting to twin diesel. Please find me a happy 420 hybrid owner. I have searched for them and now even the most proud hybrid supporters have converted. Apparently you can still purchase a 421 with the hybrid system but I would guess nobody has chosen that system.
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:15   #94
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Small, lightweight , flexible.......seems perfect!!

http://www.steyr-motors.com/fileadmi...linder_web.pdf

I'm actually excited to see one of these!!
No sooner than I typed, you came off with a link. See what you can do with a turbo on small diesels. That 36 hp, 176 lb diesel ought to wake up the marketing departments of Perkins, Kubota, Yanmar, etc. Thanks for the link, it goes in my bookmarks.
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:19   #95
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
No sooner than I typed, you came off with a link. See what you can do with a turbo on small diesels. That 36 hp, 176 lb diesel ought to wake up the marketing departments of Perkins, Kubota, Yanmar, etc. Thanks for the link, it goes in my bookmarks.
Let us know about price and reliability on a boat.
I like it.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:33   #96
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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However in combo with a large dynamo and an electric motor one may overcome the problem of the gasturdbine and that is the running on low revs is impractical.
Also, running at much less than peak power is not efficient.

By the time you civilized a turbine to the point that is was only as unpleasant to live with as a diesel I wonder if there would be much savings in weight or much gain even in peak efficiency. Turbines are great in some specialized uses but I suspect the big reason they haven't caught on as general purpose engines is that they aren't, on balance, as well suited to most tasks as piston engines.

Tom.
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Old 13-02-2012, 20:20   #97
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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I want to hear more from Alberto. What his system entails, how often he motors and what he uses to recharge his batteries. If you use your boat as a day sailor and can tie up to the dock every night to recharge that's one thing. If you cruise and live on the hook that's totally different. I'm all for electric I just don't think the technology or maybe affordable technology is there yet.
Please prove me wrong.

It depends on your sailing, electric is not for everybody. I decided on the conversion because I thought it would be compatible with our sailing, and so far it has worked for us, we are extremely pleased. We are neither blue-water sailors nor long-distance cruisers; we keep the boat at a marina and recharge the batteries using shore power.



We are located in the upper Chesapeake Bay and we sail between April and Thanksgiving, trying to use the boat as much as we can. Normal weekend trips are 20+ miles each way, sometimes longer, and we go on those trips many times each season. Week-long cruises, at least once or twice a season. I’ve sailed around Delmarva with the diesel, and I would do it again with electric.


Unlike ICEs, and as discussed in many threads before, range is limited and higher speeds will deplete the batteries very rapidly. A fouled prop and/or bottom will definitely have a huge negative impact in range.


Our system is 72 Volts, belt driven, with a Mars brushed motor and Kelly controller (both of which I would recommend without hesitation). The charger takes care of each of the six batteries individually.


As for how we sail, I think we have always been the last to start the engine (the motor now) when the wind dies, and the first to stop it when the breeze returns. I must say that it is not a big deal, as people in our area seem to motor quite a lot, even when the conditions are perfect for sailing. Many times we’ve sailed for miles keeping pace with larger sailboats that were motoring.



We have always been very flexible regarding when and where we go, as we didn’t like to spend hours motoring when we had the diesel. In this sense there have been no major changes in our sailing since the conversion. We have had many windless days in the past, and more than once we had to motor for over 10 hours, but it has not happened since going electric. Only once the wind died completely, forcing us to motor the last 16 nM (while making 3.6 knots), to arrive at the marina with the batteries with plenty of charge left. We bought the generator last June for peace of mind, and as I mentioned in my previous post we have not used it yet.



If in our area currents were strong, or conditions normally rough, or if I would normally be compelled to motoring fast, most likely I would have kept the diesel. As none of those conditions apply to us, electric works perfectly. Even when the wind dies we can still move at 3 knots in silence.


Now, if this experience would place me in the “nut” category, I’d better keep my next project for myself…


Alberto



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Old 13-02-2012, 20:26   #98
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Does anyone actually own a small to medium size boat that uses an electric motor in lieu of an INBOARD diesel engine?
I would like to read/hear his opinion.
I converted an 8 ton 30 foot monohull back in 2008 and have never looked back. Bought a turnkey system from Asmo Marine did most of the install my self:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: Going electric: Part 1: The why and how
. You are right there is a lot of stuff to carry onboard when you have a diesel. Once you take it off you may be suprised by how much I was. Spare parts and fluids all get taken off. The beauty of an electric propulsion system is it's easily upgradable too. If some new whiz bang battery technology comes along you can use it. If Honda comes out with a new generator you can swap it with the Honda 2000. My complete system (minus the batteries) was delivered to my door in two 45 lb packages. How you use the system is flexible too. There are times when I use a little EP that I would never fire up the diesel for. As I mentioned negating prop drag in light winds. I do it because so quiet and does not interfere with enjoying the sailing experience. For me thats a big part of having a sailboat. A lot of people seem hung up on how long the batteries will last motoring and how much you need. For them EP probably will never work. All I can say it works for me. I have the Honda on board so I can do extended motoring if I need too and charging once I reach the next anchorage. I rarely tie up to a dock. But, I often never use it because I don't have to. I'll let solar and wind generator charge things up and keep the bank topped up whenever I can. Though I have done 10 hours motoring with it on one particularly windless day. But, I can tell you that 10 hours was a lot more pleasurable than if I had the diesel running. I cruise the same places as when I had my diesel too. I've not found any limitations in my travels. I've also found my EP system to be much more reliable than the old diesel and much easier to access than the diesel was and off course cleaner and less costly to maintain. For me the experience with my electric propulsion system just gets better every year.
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Old 13-02-2012, 23:26   #99
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

It's doubtful that turbines will ever become common. The tolerances are extremely close to make them efficient and the internal temperatures in the compressor section are so high that the metal actually elongates from centrifugal forces. the machining is to extemely close tolerances. More importantly, it takes some really exotic materials to resist the creep which makes them extremely costly to manufacture and machine.

For light weight and efficiency, turbocharged engines are probably the engine for the forseeable future.
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Old 14-02-2012, 01:46   #100
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

Should this thread be retitled "Motoring vs Sailing"?
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Old 14-02-2012, 02:40   #101
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Should this thread be retitled "Motoring vs Sailing"?
If you want split hair i suppose you could be right!
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Old 14-02-2012, 06:43   #102
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

Thank you MBIANKA for your report. I find it most interesting that someone with actual experience, finds EP to have advantages over diesel while so many with no experience only find potential difficulty.
Like ALBERTO, I am last start the engine and first to turn it off. But then, I am retired with no set schedule, no reason to be anyplace at a particular time and if I take an extra few hours or even an extra few days, so what?
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Old 14-02-2012, 07:48   #103
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Thank you MBIANKA for your report. I find it most interesting that someone with actual experience, finds EP to have advantages over diesel while so many with no experience only find potential difficulty.
Like ALBERTO, I am last start the engine and first to turn it off. But then, I am retired with no set schedule, no reason to be anyplace at a particular time and if I take an extra few hours or even an extra few days, so what?
So true. I've learned over the years that I get into the most trouble when I make a schedule and engaged in a "gotta, gotta, gotta" mode. Life is much better when you go with the flow.
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Old 14-02-2012, 08:28   #104
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So true. I've learned over the years that I get into the most trouble when I make a schedule and engaged in a "gotta, gotta, gotta" mode. Life is much better when you go with the flow.
I read your blog and really like your system but for me in a catamaran with twin motors it doesn't make sense. Installing twice the weight you installed would overload my boat and the fact the prop is in the water full time would lead to to much drag thus destroying the sailing performance and having me motor more.
What is your average speed with the EP?
The Torqueedo motor would be more in line for the type boat I sail but still I think there would be a weight penalty with all the batteries and the need for a large generator.
Hopefully sometime soon.
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Old 14-02-2012, 09:49   #105
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Re: Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

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Thank you MBIANKA for your report. I find it most interesting that someone with actual experience, finds EP to have advantages over diesel while so many with no experience only find potential difficulty.
Yes. How many sailors that went electric would go back to an ICE? I have to find one yet... How many naysayers have ever been on an electric boat? I have to find one yet... How many people who have sailed with us wished they could have electric propulsion in their boats? 100%
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