Anyone on this Forum, with a late model LEOPARD 48 for a few questions?

[Helia 44]

First of all, I own what I consider to be the most spacious cruising yacht, with great performance, for travel in the coastal islands and ports of the Great Barrier Reef... A Helia 44, and I probably have the best equipped on in the world.. If you are curious, it is in the Builders section for Fountain Pajot IMPROVEMENTS IN THE HELIA 44, what I have done customizing AVALON in the past two years...

I am up in years, mid 60's, and while I am totally happy with the Helia, I have revisited the L-48 at two boat Shows and am favorably impressed. The FP SABA 50 is also a consideration, but I am concerned it is a little too big, and there is no Maestro one to see in Australia. There are about 10-12 L-48s here. The Attraction? The forward submarine door to the front cockpit, with sides and roof funnels a breeze through the bridge deck and: Now I must admit I was taken by this. It is the same layout as the Helia 44 Maestro Owners cabin Starboard hull as I have, only ballroom spacious.. From my Engineering study over two years I think it is a Blue Water boat, hull core samples and all.. so no worries there. It has two major attractions besides size:

1) The boats electrical is very well organized in one place behind a smoked glass door with another door to access the back side. It is all very well done. In the French boats, it is a little like French society and higgely piggely all over the place. Like resetting fuse modules in main deck plus both hulls, 240 CBs in SB Engine Room, 12v switching in port cabin steps below nav station, and so on.. I takes a learning curve to get to know it all, let alone learn to trouble shoot it. I am there now, and it is workable, but the central organization of all 12v and 240 volt CB and switching in one place in attractive to me in trouble shooting... Not necessary, just an attractive feature OK, and not even the main feature which is below.

2) The biggest thing, did not appeal to me a year ago, and now does. It is really the Helia 44 Maestro layout on steroids, but there is a huge variation in that it has an armoured double glass submarine style door going forward to a small front cockpit to seat 6-8. This is lovely in certain conditions, and the huge grated scuppers would drain any boarding seas in seconds. The big advantage is with the door open you funnel in a breeze as the bridge deck sides shelter the cockpit on each side, and roof overhead, means catching and funneling in a breeze to cool the main bridge deck and aft cockpit in the tropical weather I travel in. It would be a HUGE advantage in any breeze where the boat sits at anchor facing the breeze. Natural air conditioning so to speak..Where now I have to run Cummins Onan 9.5 and air conditioning more. It is also an large expanded socializing area with weather advantages, sun, and so on you get the idea. There are 10-12 in Australia, and one is coming to the Sydney for the International Boat Show end of July..

And really #3) A practical thing is the displacement of the hulls.. With all the luxury extremes of my Helia she is pretty well loaded. I cannot put on any more and will actually remove some.. For example the extra hull displacement capacity: I want to upgrade the anchor windlass to a Loftans Tigress from the Cayman, 1500 watt from 100 watt. On the Helia 44 I will keep it at home in the garage. On the Leopard I would wrap it waterproof and store it in the bilge. For the two tons of luxury I carry, the L-48 would do the job more gracefully..

Reservations? I welcome your comments if you have an L-48. My biggest concern is the smaller size of the engines. My Helia 44 has Volvo D2-55s 55 hp. The Saba 50 for instance has the 75's. The D2-55' are the Turbo version without the Turbo so near bulletproof and overbuilt. The L-48 is a bit under powered IMO with Yamaha 56's. And Yamaha says they will not take a turbo.. It is a 6 knot boat on one engine... My smaller Helia 44 is a 7 knot boat on one engine. This is workable, and I am coming to terms with it.. Look, on the becalmed days when I want to make a longer passage to the next anchorage or port, ok on the L-48 I run both engines to log an 85-90 NM day run or leave before dawn to run one engine..

My feeling is 50/50 whether I upgrade or not. The Leopard is still daunting in size, but I feel it is manageable... I am the most fit mid 60's person I know, but the main boom is a bit high on the L-48. If you have one, have you looked into main boom main furling with battens? That would be on my list.. Mast furling is not a good shape and too hard to re-rig. Boom furling for the main with battens and patches for reefing would be my choice......

You comments are welcome..... Regards, Helia 44 AVALON

[HKTim]

I have a 2015 L48. My previous boat was a 2010 L46. A big selling point for us on the upgrade was the new saloon and front cockpit design. Having the front door open is great for air flow and the foreward cockpit is a great place to sit when sailing (or when trying to avoid the early morning or late afternoon sun). My boat was delivered on her own bottom from South Africa and the boat arrived in very good shape. We had some problems with the engines, but these problems were all traced back to installation issues.

I've not done a speed trial with one engine but I know that with two engines you get 8-8.5 knots at around 2100-2500 RPMs. I would think that with one engine at 2300-2500 RPM you would be close to 7 knots. I've been meaning to confirm this for myself and will try to find some time on my next trip out to check speeds at different RPMs with one or both engines. Because the engines are electronically controlled they are more sensitive to potential problems. For example, we have had some overheating issues that have been linked to coolant changes (done on delivery) and also problems with the heat exchangers (replaced by Yanmar). The Yanmar tech said on the old 54 HP mechanical engine, you would have not known these problems existed until the situation was more serious.

I have chosen to put two mastervolt 360 amp lithium batteries in the house bank. I've done some testing and find I can run the starboard hull air con (set to 23 degrees C), two fridges, and some lights for 8.5 hours and consume only 259 amp (by comparison the batteries can be fully recharged from this state in less then two hours from genset driven AC charger alone). This was much better then I expected and I am now considering to add one more lithium to my house bank so I can run air con in both hulls all night with no generator. The water temp when I did this test was 28 C and air temperature was about the same.

The lithiums charge back up quickly. I am only using the genset powered battery charger for now but if I take the boat for longer journeys, I'll probably add a second alternator on each engine exclusively for the house charging. Possibly will add solar too. But for now, we are away for at most 2-3 days and inevitably running the genset for a few hours each day anyway, so currently charging needs are fine.

I'd also add that the aft cockpit is more covered then on our previous boat. The gantry davits work great for the dingy and accessibility to the boom from the coachroof is fine (I am 175 cm and can zip and unzip the stack pack cover from the deck pretty easily). I had the square top main on my L46 and hated it because of the difficulty to hook up the halyard. So we went with the standard main this time which still has a big roach but fully drops down into the stack pack when the halyard is released.

The boat sails well and with breeze into the teens, you can see 8-9 knots pretty easily when reaching. Sail handling is all done from the helm and have not had any problems with this.

We've put a Rocna 40 anchor (replacing the Delta 25) and feel very secure on the hook.

Send me any more specific questions you have and I'll do my best to help.

Tim

[Helia 44]

Well,
Thank you Tim, You are the Man!!

A few specifics questions please:

1) I single handle the Helia 44, even raced here a few times single handed.. How old and fit are you, and do you feel it daunting to single handle?

2) Do you dock to port side, without a camera? Or do you always dock to starboard? You cannot see the Port bow from the helm...

3) The helm seat is waaay to far from the helm. Do you stand running in and out of harbours and rely on the AutoPilot when in the open? I was thinking to do custom stainless slide and lock like a vehicle, to move the helm seat forward. That and get a wheel about 200 mm bigger in radius, to sweep the deck, and allow standing out on the side deck for docking and still use the wheel??

4) Are you comfortable with the Yamaha 56's now?

5) How about the Northern Lights 9 kva gen set?

6) Do you reef the main? OK with that?

7) I was also thinking of reinforcing the stern davits, with a girder strap and increased base, to carry a center console hard bottom inflatable with spray screen.. It would mean another maybe 100 kg on the stern. OK with that?

8) Good on you with the Rocna 40, I have the Rocna 33 on the Helia 44...
Good with the LIthium batteries as well. I was going that direction with DC to DC chargers on each engine, and maybe a 120 amp charger for the gen set..

9) Do you have a prodder and a screecher up there? If it is about the size of a monohull 150 Genoa, it is a heck of a sail even up wind, or off the wind if it has a big pocket.... Mine is pretty flat and when winched in tight I have done 12 knots upwind in 20, maybe 22 knots apparent. That was about its limit, at sort of a 5 oz sail before I risk blowing it out.

10) Do you have a full enclosure with unzipping sides that roll up?

Dunno, but think you might have the top, largest, comfortable living, Production boat in the world that I have seen... Lots are faster, more racing oriented, but I am cruising in islands and sheltered water and this may be the most comfortable I have seen.... My Helia 44 is the tops, but I am trending on overloading it... She is sluggish with 940 litres of fuel on board and 700 litres of water, and all my other gear like all chain rode and two anchors, so I light her up a ton when not taking a big run north. I run one tank empty and half the water since I have a water maker, and am reducing chain, and cannot carry any more spares or optional equipment... Mind you my list would be staggering, the most well equipped in the world, like six air condition, hydraulic steering, two watermakers in 12v and 240, three spinnakers, on and on down to a third back up Garmin Global Plotter, and the girl is just always on the verge of being overloaded. The L-48 with the same luxury levels on board would carry my level of luxury and spares more gracefully...

Can you own up to any reservations about your L-48??? I mean the SABA 50 has a superior galley with an island to lock you in and a return on the forward side, it is far safer but the L-48 is workable... And the L-48 is a bit short on refrigeration, I have about twice the size in refrigeration in my Helia 44, but again you can fix that with a built in portable freezer on the side wing flat areas of the front cockpit or in a stern seat built in... Any other reservations???

Thank you for your kind help.... Helia 44 AVALON in the Great Barrier Reef

[HKTim]

Hi there, here you go:

1. I sail with family and friends but for the most part do everything myself. Probably the only task that would be bet done with two is docking. I am 48 but with electric winches for the main halyard and jib sheets, there is not much physical work to be concerned with - regardless of age or fitness.

2. I do dock to port and, as you said, you can not see the port bow. I got the video camera option on the bow, but to be honest, I don't think its massively useful. My docking approach is to drive past my dock space (similar to how you would parallel park a car) and then back in. Only two lines are used - bow and stern. First a stern line is handed to the dock from the transom after the boat has been backed into the dock (at this time, the boat is perpendicular to the dock with the bows facing out. From the helm I have great visibility of each transom and can bring the boat within a foot of the dock quite easily. The stern line is loosely tied off on the dock. I then spin the bow in using the stern line as my pivot point. Even with a decent cross breeze, I can bring the bow in pretty easily. Its pretty easy to tell when the bow is fully swung around so the boat is parallel to the dock. I have put a lot of fenders along the dock as I expect I will be pushing the boat into these during the docking procedure. Once the bow and stern lines are set, I can go about tightening up the lines and putting the rest of the dock lines on.

3. You are right about the position of the helm seat. For manoeuvres I am always standing and I am happy to stand while sailing for awhile too. But the auto helm is pretty handy to use even when just sitting in the helm seat where I can keep a loose watch on everything but also be reading a book or talking to a friend. Hadn't thought about a bigger radius for the wheel. I am pretty comfortable with the current set up. So reckon thats more a personal feel issue.

4. New Yanmar engines seem ok. I am just getting over a frustrating period where the local Yanmar agent was not really able to troubleshoot some of the problems we had. But Yanmar sent their own tech recently and, seems like everything is going well now. Problems were related to cooling system. Engines were working always, but we were getting some overheating alarms at higher RPMs and could not figure out why. Flushing old coolant and a new heat exchanger seems to have been the fix.

5. The genset is the same as on my L46. Seems very reliable although I had a problem with the water pump on my old boat and frequent impeller issues. Its been suggested that I take out the impeller all together and install a strong uptake pump just after the thruhull. I've not done this yet but may do it at some point as a proactive measure to ensure good water cooling to the genset.

6. Sadly have never had the need to reef (we just don't get enough wind). I'd say the reefing system though has some friction in it that requires rethinking. If I needed to have a reefing put in, I'd think the easiest fix is just to switch to a two point reefing system so that one line reefs the clew and one and the tack. Obviously you would need to choose which reef you want to use and pre-rig it this way. I've not played around enough with this though to have much useful advice.

7. I almost always use the dingy to get to a beach, sometimes in a small amount of surf. So my dingy is very light (53 kg) to allow it to be pulled up on the beach easily. We have a two stroke 8 HP Yamaha that weighs just 27 kg. I don't know the engineering thresh holds of the current set up but I think there is a recommendation to not exceed 200 kg total weight. I know there are centre console boats with 15-20 HP engines on them that can be hoisted though, so you might be able to get what you want without modifications. I did add an extra purchase in the tackle to reduce the work done by the electric winch.

8. Yanmar proudly indicated that on the new 57 common rail, they've put on better alternators - but although they are rated at 125 amps, the reality is they are still internally regulated. Unfortunately they've also decided that the same alternator should be used if you want to add a second unit to the engine. With lithium batteries we need an externally regulated alternator. I though for awhile about opening up the Yanmar alternator and wiring in an external alternator, but have decided that for now, the 125 amp Yanmar alternator will only be charging the start battery - wasted charging capacity - but I decided rather then modifying something on a relatively new engine model, I'd just leave it alone. However, I am currently spec'ing a custom bracket to be made for each engine to add an externally regulated alternator so I can directly charge from the second alternator to the house.

9. I had a prodder and Code 0 on my old boat and, perhaps because of the design or misuse, was really put off by the arrangement. I think the factory supplied gear really was the issue. The Code 0 had a bad habit of coming unfurled or the furler drum getting jammed and not furling - always just when then wind was piping up and making the sail difficult to manage. I've taken the view that if I want a prodder and Code 0, I'll be able to make a better one with better gear. But before that, I am more likely to just get an asymmetric with a sock.

10. I had the full helm enclosure on my old boat and decided against it on this boat. I did get the roll up wind screen though. I found on the old boat the enclosure got a fair amount of mold growth pretty quickly and it was often too hot because of reduced circulation. I said with the windscreen only on a couple rainy and blustery days this past winter and was happy with the protection. If it was really miserable, I'd just go below with the remote auto pilot.

11. I have the factory cockpit fridge option and the saloon fridge/freezer. Plus I have a high quality ski that doubles as a seat at the cockpit table. We freeze water bottles in the freezer and put those in the eski for extra cooling capacity when out with friends and lots of cold drinks are needed. Seems to work ok. The ski is a Yeti from the US. Keeps ice or frozen water bottles for 3-5 days.

Two items that I might reconsider on my next boat are the genset and the air con system. I think its possible to go without a genset. If you put a good solar system on the roof and two 130 amp alternators on each engine (520 amps total), you can easily run all your AC and DC needs with just a little motoring time each day. Recall that I only needed 259 amps for all night air con and refrigeration. You can put that back into the batteries with a decent solar set up and maybe 30 minutes or less from the engines.

For the air con, I'd look at split systems that separates the compressor. The configuration on the port hull air con of the L48 is to share one unit with two rooms. This is not too efficient as we usually only use one of these two cabins. I think the split systems are more efficient users of energy so might be worth considering instead of the standard factory all-in-one air con units that Leopard use.

A lot of my needs are based on a relatively short trips out in protected or close to protected areas. If I do start going off shore with the boat, I might look to upgrade the quality of the halyards and sheets. Otherwise I think I would be pretty happy with the set up we have.

Cheers

Tim

[44'cruisingcat]

I'm surprised a 100 Watt windlass would be able to raise an anchor.

[Helia 44]

HKTim,

Thank you for all of that... I am a bit more experienced than you and so my viewpoint will differ on a few little things, but you are pretty much on track and I thank you for your input.. I am in the Business of providing independent power in remote locations in Australia, and well conversant with generators and solar and Lithium batteries and will try and help on a few points:

Comments: The top air conditioning I have had, has been the Cruiseaire. They make a shroud over the evaporator unit, so you can duct it around the boat. It is very efficient, with the compressor and condensor for sea water exchange condensing all in one location with AC saltwater pumps in the bilge for heat exhange. It is very efficient, only mine has a shroud over it so the big blower can duct the air to locations where needed. It is my understanding, that the Leopards units are larger than mine. On the Helia where I have six for redundancy, two in the bridge deck, two in the starboard hull owners cabin, and one each for the two cabins to port. If the Leopard only has one 16,000 BTU unit for the two port cabins, you may want to see about shrouding the evaporator radiator and ducting it to where it needs to go. This would work better for privacy, not having to keep cabin doors open to air condition the hull.

On using the engines for charging, adding enough solar, and not having a gen set: I totally disagree with that for two reasons, but one is pertinent to You.. Letting a diesel idle for hours at a time unloaded is about the worst thing you can do for it. Your system would work if you are moving all the time loading up the motors, but for air conditioning in the tropics or charging longer term, it would glaze up cylinders and unseat the rings in time. Running a diesel long term at idle, can only be done on a few select engines in the world... I would advise against this, you could harm the engine and wreck the oil rings by glazing the cylinders, to put it in laymans terms so to speak..

Secondly, I am not sure you need a second alternator, I mean I cannot pick why. Yours will work, I mean maybe buy one spare to store.. but: First of all you can install DC to DC chargers (do your research), and also get a "Make before Break" battery switch to direct the charge from your alternator. Make before break just means that it loads up the alternator with the new battery bank before breaking the contact to the other bank, so you don't blow the diodes in you alternator. But even then, I do not really think it necessary as you can just add in the circuit with the DC to DC charger with the Lithium algorithm, and a trigger relay runs the DC to DC charger, most have it built in.... Lithiums top out a flat line voltage of about 14.2 to charge and the only problem is the DC to DC charger is that with the engine off your battery would continue to charge the Lithiums until you engine starting battery was dead. You would need to put in an ignition feed to trigger the DC to DC charger to come on, that shuts it off when the engine is turned off. That is the type I use and it works very well and the trigger relay ignition feed is built in. This sounds complicated, but it is all pretty easy stuff and very inexpensive OK?

Secondly, solar to run ac, is not an option, you would have to cover the bridge deck roof, and any panels partly shaded stop putting out. You can get panels with partial blocking diodes so they run partly shaded, but then the area covered is twice as much for the same power. Nice green idea but I don't think it is practical, certainly not for me in the Tropics of the GBR.

For me the gen set is not an option, it is a necessity and here is why: Year before last we had a heat wave when I was playing over Christmas behind Fraser Island (Christmas is our summer in the Southern Hemisphere) and it was 40+ C degrees k(about 100 F) all day. You were outside, fishing, swimming, in the dinghy, you could take that except for a little afternoon siesta when we commonly ran the genset and air conditioning for a few hours to break the heat. It got cooler at night, but for ten nights only got down into the 30's. I cannot sleep in weather over 30 C, and flop around all night. I tried to man up one night, and no one slept well Wife and I or Guests, so for that heat wave we ran the genset and air conditioning every night. I also have an Isotherm drawer fridge about half again to twice as large as the L-48, all refrigeration. As well have a 100 litre or so freezer in the galley, as well as another fridge in the cockpit like the L-48 has AND a fair sized ice maker.... Since we travel at around 7 knots on one engine, that is the perfect trolling speed. I also keep a 5" thick wall 100 litre freezer in the cockpit, and four rod holders, and can troll four rigs. I caught probably 50 fish on my last trip, turned loose more than half, still filled the freezer with fillets and steaks. Besides the air conditioning I need the gen set at anchor about say 3 - 4 hours a day to handle all that refrigeration, and I also make water with a 240v (our voltage in Australia) watermaker. It will make about 80-90 litres an hours, so I would use it every other day as well. Without air conditioning, I can live off the motors alternators if I am moving to another island with a 3-4 hour run. At anchor I need it every day to every other day... Due to refrigeration as well as air conditioning and refrigeration for me, the genset is a necessity. Your weather and needs might be radically different, but not for me in the tropics. I have 450 hours on a 9.5 Cummins Onan gen set, should be a 10,000 hour genset, and I only have 450 hours in a three year old Helia 44. I hope to live so long as to wear it out..

Two line reefing: A bit messy in sheets to the cockpit for two reefs but workable. I am getting old and lazy, and would like to have an internal boom furling system built, and just may..

That is about all I can think of to add for you right now, except roller screen over bridge deck doors for buggy times, rare but does happen...

Kind regards and Thanks, from Helia 44 AVALON in Mooloolaba, Australia

44'cruisingcat That was a typo, Lofrans Cayman is 1000 watt. I am thinking of upgrading to the Lofrans Tigress, 1500 watt. But I will wait to decide if I am getting a Leopard-48 or not first. The Cayman is adequate, but works a little hard in deep water with chain hanging and a Rocna 33 kg plow.

[HKTim]

If you go with in boom furling, choose the make and installation carefully. I had a Profurl boom furler on a boat 10 years ago and it was a nightmare. The problem was the mainsail bolt rope getting jammed in the luff track. I am sure that a complete new mast and boom package works better because the design was for the purpose. But am not sure that the roller furler boom and a kit for a new mast track on an existing mast can work as well. Fortunately the problem was always on the hoisting, unlike in mast furlers, where the problem is often on the furler. But I'd say that flawless hoists happened only 30-40% of the time. The rest of the time you needed someone at the mast to carefully feed the main into the track and, more often then not, pull the main back down when it got jammed. I always assumed it was a two person job to do.

[Helia 44]

Thank you for that HKTim,

And I would MOST CERTAINLY be careful with any such installation as it could be $30,000 (Aus $) install or more. I would fly to see it work somewhere before investing..

Also, I really like your idea of big big roach in the standard main shape, without the square top.. That more normal main sail shape would be a huge advantage as the square top is always the biggest hassle. They have invented a disconnecting car, to engage the head board on hoist, but it is problematic as well. I just leave a lot of slack in the halyard as I bundle down the main, theN take the main halyard double purchase forward to the mast and put through a snap shackle, then back out to bungie cord with hooks to keep it slapping. It is without a doubt a real pain.. I may even consider the re-cut of the main if I decide to stay with the Helia 44, as the normal main sail drop into the stack pack with lazy jacks is the answer...

Kind regards, Helia 44 AVALON

[Helia 44]

P.S. TO THE ABOVE for clarification.

The headboard on the Helia is held to the mast track by a snap shackle. What I have to do now is: I pull the snap shackle and take the square top folded down aft, and then feed the double purchase of the main halyard forward to put that through the same snap shackle... Then I have to use the bungie cords to pull the main halyard back out away from the mast above the snap shackle..

Thanks for your help, I wish you were closer, and would pay for a day sail or two..

[ausaviator]

I agree, a beautiful boat indeed.

I spotted this one in Melbourne (Vic) last week. Didn't get a chance to speak to them so don't know if it's local or not.

[Helia 44]

Hello AusAviator,

The grabbing thing is the flexibility of the front cockpit as well. At first it did not grab me, but after a few hot seasons the idea grew... At anchor with the armoured glass submarine door open, the sides of the bridge deck around the front cockpit, funnels the breeze through.

It had not occurred to me how great this could be.. I still am not sold on it, and will decide in the next four to six weeks. It is hard when I already have the best equipped Helia 44 in the world with the same layout...

Imagine the aft cockpit closed in with side clears and canvas covers, zip roll up, and the helm closed in the same.. Like on mine.. It really increases the all weather live in area. Especially lowers the air conditioning use in hot weather with that funnel effect of a breeze right through when facing the breeze at anchor..

Here is what it would look like: This is my Helia 44 AVALON at dockside, in front of a Yacht Club for an "overnighter" while Cruising.. click on it to blow it up....

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Helia 44

.... the front cockpit,

It doesnt have a forward cockpit, it has a forward saloon/lounging area,

want a forward cockpit get a Chris White Atlantic.

[rallyman1122]

Originally Posted by Factor

It doesnt have a forward cockpit, it has a forward saloon/lounging area,

want a forward cockpit get a Chris White Atlantic.

Semantics. Pretty sure everyone understands what Helia 44 is referring to.

[Helia 44]

Staying on the Helia 44 AVALON for the weekend.... I have come to a conclusion:

This is a GREAT boat.... I think I will stop right here. A Man has to know, when the little kid inside of us is the motivator...

The Helia 44 is near perfect, and this one is LOADED... I will continue to modify and customize it a little, but to go any larger for just cruising the GBR and East Coast of Australia, to go any larger is ludicrous...

As it is, I am on the big side, two 44' hulls joined by a massive house bridge deck with visibility all the way through from the back cockpit and massive visibility from the helm... I think I will just count my blessings and stay on board the Helia 44... Any larger, and in high winds and cross currents in tricky harbours is going to be a bit stressful.

Thank all of you for your input, sounding it out helps me to come to terms with it for myself. There is such a thing as too big. AVALON is the end of a dream and probably about as good as it gets...

Kind regards...

[Factor]

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

Semantics.

Sure is, Semantics is the study of meaning, and the meaning of COCKPIT is not somewhere to sip drinks and NOT control the vessel.