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Old 10-11-2007, 13:50   #16
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Originally Posted by seadog3315 View Post
"At about 0215 the stern was picked up by a very steep wave and I presume a sudden wind gust (out of clear air not a squall) our speed increased but the bows did not rise. The spinnaker sheet was released to no avail and the vessel pitch poled . . .

Makes compelling reading.

http://www.multihull.com.au/www/pdf/...ancing_emu.pdf
The reports of the 1998 Sydney - Hobart race make compelling reading also. So what?
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Old 10-11-2007, 14:03   #17
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Originally Posted by Sailormann View Post
Well you have to say that - you own one. Hmm - a mutlihull that changed course regardless of what you did - that sounds like a wonderful craft indeed. Ordinarily, a boat will wait until the rudder turns before it changes direction and will not going hieing off in every direction regardless of whether or not you have dropped the sails or tried to slow it down.

...I think it's great that some people sail multihulls, it would be a very boring world if we were all the same. But I enjoy teasing those folk as I find they take the bait easily...
I haveto wonder why you took the time to post this . Surely you're not really that stupid are you?

FYI, we were tacking with just the main while waiting for a race to start. I asked the skipper if the boat would tack just as easily (and it was as easy as turning the wheel) under the headsail alone, so next day we did some headsail only tacks.

Perhaps to a monohull sailor that sounds like a wonderful craft. In reality it is just a well designed 38 foot cruising catamaran. It was quite wonderful the way we were able to cruise past "Sitka", (a Sydney-Hobart winner, at around 80 feet LOA with a mast around 125 feet tall, and sails as big as a soccer field) sitting drinking coffee, while they seemed to be struggling to control her in the gusts. But that's multihull sailing.
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Old 10-11-2007, 14:13   #18
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That was well said 44'cruisingcat
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Old 10-11-2007, 14:17   #19
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post

BTW Sailormann, a well designed cat will tack just fine. I was on a 38 foot cruising catamaran that would happily tack on one sail, either main or jib, would tack with no daggerboard down, and would complete a tack that was started at just 2 knots boatspeed. It tacked far more quickly than a full keeled monohull. It also sailed at better than 30 degrees apparent, and showed VMG's of 6-8 knots upwind in 10 - 15 knot TWS breezes. No doubt all that would be impossible according to the RYA.

Which 38 footer?

I was in a 32 Cheoy Lee (full keel) on Tampa Bay, reefed down a little (too much I guess) and it would not come about. We tried it fast. We tried it slow. It would not come about. We turned right and gybed. That'll teach her!!
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Old 10-11-2007, 14:30   #20
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I hate when that happens. Of course, there's always backing the jib.

Works..
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Old 10-11-2007, 14:42   #21
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I hate when that happens. Of course, there's always backing the jib.

Works..
This was early in my sailing career.
I think we tried that too but I guess we did not know enough.

anyway.........
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Old 10-11-2007, 15:10   #22
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Which 38 footer?

I was in a 32 Cheoy Lee (full keel) on Tampa Bay, reefed down a little (too much I guess) and it would not come about. We tried it fast. We tried it slow. It would not come about. We turned right and gybed. That'll teach her!!

An Oram 38 "Mango' design, this boat: Bob Oram Design For Sale: 38 Mango - Tribute
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Old 10-11-2007, 16:55   #23
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Sorry Rick. I guess I should have ended with the question, "what would you have done had you been in the skipper's position, and you are cruising, not racing?"

Here are excerpts of Richard's report: "Everything was going well and giving no reason for concern. The wind increasing to 18/25kts as expected and we changed from spinnaker to screecher several times to suit the wind direction. At no stage were we concerned . . . We approached Indian Head under screecher and full main with speeds of 14-16kts. On rounding the headland the course change resulted in losing speed to eight to nine knots so we put the spinnaker up again and speed increased; back to 14-16 . . . At about 0215 the stern was picked up by a very steep wave and I presume a sudden wind gust (out of clear air not a squall) our speed increased but the bows did not rise. The spinnaker sheet was released to no avail and the vessel pitch poled."

Reasonably, I would have studied the weather, and probably not gone out. But if I were doing a passage, and have to ride this out, what should I be doing?

I linked to these reports to bring us back to the discussion on how we can sail cats safer, better and to point out that cats do capsize, and what we as newbies, either to sailing or to cats, should be doing, more along the line of Auspicious' post. Linking to a racing report may not have been a good idea, I apologise for that.

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Old 10-11-2007, 17:03   #24
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The rescue boat stated that winds freshened to 27 knots, so as a cruiser, I wouldn't have had that Spinnaker up starters.

Like the commercials say ... Speed Kills
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Old 10-11-2007, 17:22   #25
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I believe at that point, wind speed was maxing at 18 knots. If it were daylight, should I then furl the gennaker (or douse the spinnaker) and switch to genoa? This brings me to my first post, where I mentioned areas notorious for "bullets" which come out of nowhere. Should I have put the first reef in for both genoa & main as a precaution? At night, should I be sailing with first reef in on genoa & main, again as a precaution, as my reaction time may be a lot slower, and I can't really see how big the waves are, and I would be in the salon.

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Old 10-11-2007, 17:25   #26
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Originally Posted by seadog3315 View Post
Sorry Rick. I guess I should have ended with the question, "what would you have done had you been in the skipper's position, and you are cruising, not racing?"

Here are excerpts of Richard's report: "Everything was going well and giving no reason for concern. The wind increasing to 18/25kts as expected and we changed from spinnaker to screecher several times to suit the wind direction. At no stage were we concerned . . . We approached Indian Head under screecher and full main with speeds of 14-16kts. On rounding the headland the course change resulted in losing speed to eight to nine knots so we put the spinnaker up again and speed increased; back to 14-16 . . . At about 0215 the stern was picked up by a very steep wave and I presume a sudden wind gust (out of clear air – not a squall) our speed increased but the bows did not rise. The spinnaker sheet was released to no avail and the vessel pitch poled."

Reasonably, I would have studied the weather, and probably not gone out. But if I were doing a passage, and have to ride this out, what should I be doing?

I linked to these reports to bring us back to the discussion on how we can sail cats safer, better and to point out that cats do capsize, and what we as newbies, either to sailing or to cats, should be doing, more along the line of Auspicious' post. Linking to a racing report may not have been a good idea, I apologise for that.

John
For a start, this was a RACING boat. It is extremely light, and proportionally has a huge rig and a huge sailplan. Cruising boats, even fast cruising boats, are quite different.

Most cruisers, including monohull sailors, tuck in an extra reef at nightfall. Cruising sailors wouldn't normally run under a spinnaker at night. I certainly wouldn't consider it. The "clear air" referred to may not have been - a squall can be hard to see in the dark. (I don't know how much moon there was that night) At 2 am crews are not at their most alert. (In fact they are at their LEAST alert) So they might have simply missed seeing it.

So in an equivalent size boat, with a much smaller sailplan, AND a reef in the main, AND no spinnaker flying, for a cruising boat that gust would simply have been a non-event. The crew might not have even noticed it's passing.
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Old 10-11-2007, 17:31   #27
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I believe at that point, wind speed was maxing at 18 knots. If it were daylight, should I then furl the gennaker (or douse the spinnaker) and switch to genoa? This brings me to my first post, where I mentioned areas notorious for "bullets" which come out of nowhere. Should I have put the first reef in for both genoa & main as a precaution? At night, should I be sailing with first reef in on genoa & main, again as a precaution, as my reaction time may be a lot slower, and I can't really see how big the waves are, and I would be in the salon.

John
In areas known for bullets (and they don't come from "nowhere", they come off headlands and islands) don't use a spinnaker or reacher unless you are racing, and prepared to take risks. These areas are usually fairly confined.

At night, tuck in an extra reef. It's a good idea to slow down anyway, in case you hit something unseen in the water.
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Old 10-11-2007, 19:07   #28
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Thank you 44'cruisingcat. Also, upon reading Sailormann & Therapy's posts about tacking, how susceptible would a normal mini keel cat be to being caught in irons? What should we be looking out for to avoid that happening?
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Old 10-11-2007, 19:46   #29
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Some boats are worse than others. Some monohulls don't tack easily either, despite all the myths. If your boat is slow to tack, you can help by easing the mainsheet before tacking, maybe even bearing away slightly to increase speed, and allowing the jib to backwind for a few moments before releasing it while going through the tack. You can also set up the mainsheet traveller so it will be low on the new tack, and bring it back up when the boat has picked up speed after the tack.

BTW these are all tricks I learned trying to get a full keel MONOHULL to tack.
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Old 11-11-2007, 08:31   #30
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Coupla things guys - good cats tack well, even cats built for comfort like the seawind 1160 tack brilliantly - I have tried the helm over and see what happens trick, on a seawind 1160, at low boat speeds in low wind speeds, it did 720 degrees without touching a sheet (self tacking jib), very simple and easy. But what 44crusing says is correct - get the mainsheet off before you start the tack if you have any issues.

Dancing emu was a cruising boat. Also the weather wasnt bullets it was a front coming through.
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