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Old 30-08-2012, 05:26   #16
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

foolish, would you recommend against that for single-handed based on your experience? Looks like it will get a little messy if things go wrong.
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Old 30-08-2012, 05:49   #17
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

We have a 40' cat with a 24' beam, 6 t with full cruising crap loaded aboard and we carry a fully battened main; R/F genoa; R/F screacher and assymetric spinnaker.

Normally we slow down once we hit 10+ knots of boat speed in order to keep things comfortable, but sometimes we want to have fun or get the adrenalin going or just get somewhere sooner...

The spi is a little small so we can keep it up until the true wind hits the low 20s. Once we start going over 15 knots boat speed, we think seriously about getting it down. This means the apparent windspeed hits a minimum of about 8 knots or so, but the issue is when you come down a wave, hit the trough, decelerate and the maximum apparent windspeed suddenly increases to 15+. On a recent passage, we left it up for 4 days straight but that was a bit unusual. It started to tear slightly in one corner, so we brought it down.

It might be better to have another larger kite for lighter winds but unless we stumble on a cheap one at a swap meet, we won't worry too much.

If we know there will be stronger winds or the possibility of squalls and we need to sail deeper, we wing and wing with both the roller furling headsails. Never, ever the main! No poles are necessary when winging with both headsails, but we do swap the genoa sheet over to a snatch block on the toe rail. This double-headsail arrangement gives us more sail area than just the spinnaker and they are easier to partially furl if a squall comes through. And all the drive is forward, so the boat is easy to steer.

Along our learning curve from monos to cats, we have realised the following 2 important points:

1. If the apparent wind is above about 12 knots (for us - YMMV) and behind the beam, there is no real need to have the main up. We just use the sails forward of the mast, swing the boom out of the way and allow the solar panels to do their thing.

2. Cats affect the apparent wind so much with their speed, that it is really important to keep an eye on both the apparent and true wind prior to changing course or doing a sail change. A mate who sailed with us called it the Wind Factory effect. Cats make their own wind so much more than a mono. Or when running downwind, we just delete that same wind.


The consequences of this means that with true wind speeds below about 8 - 10 knots, we use the full main and screacher and tack downwind. We get the sails up, put the wind on the beam, accelerate, the apparent wind starts to come forward, so we turn downwind while maintaining the apparent wind on the beam. If we went DDW the apparent wind speed drops too much. But if we are feeling lazy or are planning on doing a short day sail, we will go with one or two of the headsails and the boat speed wrecks the apparent wind speed and we just go slower.

Here is a video showing some different sail combinations with true wind speeds up to a max of about 20 knots and a min of about 8. About halfway through the video, you can see the full main and screacher, with boat speed of 9 - 10 knots, apparent wind speed of 9 - 10 knots on the beam and a true wind speed of 13 knots on the port quarter.




For a different example, here is another video showing our boat mostly running downwind with true wind speeds from 15 - 35 knots. Once they hit 40, all the sails came down and the video experience ended.




So, Lagoon4US, in summary, you shouldn't need poles, but a R/F screacher would be a good addition or the high cut jib as you suggested. What is your beam? Running downwind with the main and jib wing-and-wing just puts the boat out of balance and places more effort on the autopilot, especially when the boat wants to broach on a decent wave. So, to answer your question, yes, try not using the main when running and add at least a jib (but preferably a screacher on its own furler).

All these comments above are based on our experience with our boat - a Kelsall Suncat 40, fully loaded for cruising, with dagger boards and a rotating mast. The Lagoon is a different boat, but many of the same concepts are applicable.

Good luck, mate!
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Old 30-08-2012, 05:51   #18
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

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Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
We like using the Twizzle or also knkown as the Twistle rig for going down wind. One of the main benefits is that it dampens rolling when going deep downwind, not a problem you would have on a cat.

We have two stays so rig it as such, but with a single stay you can either use a 2 slotted foil or you can make a sail with to sails stitched into a luff tape.

Once it is too windy for us to comfortably fly our kite, or at night time we put up these sails and then furl down as appropriate...

Here is a good site for more info

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/twizzle%20rig.pdf
The Twizzle Rig or Twistle Rig for Downwind Ocean Sailing

SInce you dont need dampening effects you wont need to design and buuild the special rig for the poles. really all you would be doing is either getting a twin slor foil for your headsail furler or having a sail made up new specifically with a single luff tape and two sails stitched to it.
The main thing we are planning is the ARC so everything we set up on the boat aims at making it easier, much rather run twin headsails at night especially with Viv on watch she doesn't like the spinnaker idea, daytimes a different scenario tho... ill check out your link thanks.
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Old 30-08-2012, 06:02   #19
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

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Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
All these comments above are based on our experience with our boat - a Kelsall Suncat 40, fully loaded for cruising, with dagger boards and a rotating mast. The Lagoon is a different boat, but many of the same concepts are applicable.

Good luck, mate!
Such good advice = thank you.

Have blown a kite on our mono off Cape Capricorn surfing into a trough, i know where your'e coming from.

Yer no main however Lagoon say never without a main, I've looked at the rig and i'm happy to run without, if a boat this size can't handle it i'll re-rig it myself. However the mainsheet and topping lift will stay on hard.

Headsails pulling the boat is the go. We get to Turkey for winter and once we have a delivery address at that marina i'll order the sails etc based on the advice on this thread and my thoughts.

Agree about the snatch block, wish it had a holed toe rail but there are a few points of attachment.

Excellent stuff thanks Frank
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Old 30-08-2012, 06:33   #20
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

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SInce you dont need dampening effects you wont need to design and buuild the special rig for the poles. really all you would be doing is either getting a twin slor foil for your headsail furler or having a sail made up new specifically with a single luff tape and two sails stitched to it.
Agree their there is nmuch to be said to get a twin sail made up and run it on the one foil or same with two seperates but whack a twin foil on the existing headfurl, it is a Profurl, i like that idea because it adds sensibly to the wardrobe and i could get larger sails made that match nicely, main thing is for trades, both the Atlantic and for when we are in home territory.

Also like the idea of a bullet proof small assymetrical especially for this heavier cat..... Thanks for your help Frank
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Old 30-08-2012, 07:30   #21
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

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Yer no main however Lagoon say never without a main, I've looked at the rig and i'm happy to run without, if a boat this size can't handle it i'll re-rig it myself. However the mainsheet and topping lift will stay on hard.
I wonder why they say that??? Any more details in their documentation?

Yes, I agree totally with your comment about keeping the mainsheet and toppinglift tight! When running, we don't use the main so we always have both running backstays tight and the preventer also on the boom so that the boom is triangulated between toppinglift, mainsheet and preventer.

We have a fourth reef in the main, so when it gets reefed that much, even though we are not running, we also (loosely) tighten up the leeward running backstay. The 4th reef makes the main so small that the roach can pass inside both running backstays.

Sometimes, when we are continually getting hit by multiple squalls with multiple wind directions, I get too lazy for never ending sail changes. So I put in a 4th reef in the main, tighten up both running backstays, centre the traveller, centre the mast and slacken the mainsheet so it can self tack a few feet either side of the centreline. At the same time, I furl the genoa enough so that the clew is a few feet forward of the mast and tighten up both genoa sheets. So it turns into a self tacking jib. With both sails now in self tacking mode and both running backstays on, the boat is ready for almost anything in terms of changes in wind speed and wind direction. Whoever is on watch is told to relax, let me sleep and only alter course if the wind is on the nose. Yes, we go slower, but that is better than burning yourself out with sail changes every 30 minutes.
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Old 30-08-2012, 07:51   #22
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

There's nothing i can find, when you think about it tho can you imagine the uncontrolled broaches that all these boats go through if in a charter fleet?

With our boom being so large to accommodate the Profurl and not wanting anything uncontrolled i tend to like your idea of centring the traveller and letting it go for it. Sometimes a Staysail on a bridle would be nice.

Sitting in a quiet bay contemplating the rig for the last hour, i think i'll put snatch blocks either side amidships or slightly forward and run the sheet back (spinnaker like) to a turning block aft then up to the sheet winch in my erie.

A twin head-foil with two genny's around 70 sq metres each if the cut will allow. that gives me initially 140, tacked it comes down to 70 which is a great reduction. From there i can furl. If we see strong windward work i can drop one in the lee of the other and away we go, existing 42 sq metre genny can be our spare.

A code zero from the existing sprit and a small bullet proof assymetrical would give us all combo's for here to Australia. The 0 to 100% reefability of the main is sweet we love the profurl..

Largely it will be Viv and i sailing as we do with some of our adult children joining for crossings....

Cheers
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Old 30-08-2012, 08:20   #23
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

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Go and write an article Factless, you are just being immature. The second time this week I might add.



Jeannius - sounds like a clever idea. Any issues furling it, I assume the extra thickness might stiffen it up a bit?
No problems at all furling. One other boat doing the round the world trip with us used the same rig... That was a 30 year old Swan 76!
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Old 30-08-2012, 09:49   #24
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

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...
Didn't bother with poles either...
Neither do I. I've seen cats rigged with poles, and that of course will give you more positive control, but more gear to deal with too. In my experience, with such a wide beam a pole is not really necessary. I just use existing blocks or rig snatch blocks to hold the clew where I want it when running wing-on-wing. The existing block, intended for use with the spinnaker, near the bow of my boat works out quite well for this purpose.
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Old 30-08-2012, 12:05   #25
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

[QUOTE=Jimbo485;1025180]I wonder why they say that??? Any more details in their documentation?

I wonder if when the mast has no luff support it may start pumping? Someone who has run just a spinnaker on one of these would be best to say? Cheers Frank
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Old 01-09-2012, 13:56   #26
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

What is this sail? Is that horizontal panel to provide lift?
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Old 01-09-2012, 14:48   #27
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

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What is this sail? Is that horizontal panel to provide lift?

Parasailor.
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Old 01-09-2012, 17:14   #28
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Re: 40+ Foot Cruising Cats, What Sails Do You Use?

Thanks, Jimbo. Anyone care to talk about the physics involved?

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