35' cat for ocean crossing?

[smj]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

Unfortunately I might be tainted by the second hand prices Im seeing on yachting world.

However the Lagoon 380 is a few 1000 lbs more displacement than Mahe, and yet second hand theyre comparatively cheap, although I tend to take the view there are more of them in circulation, such is their popularity for bare boat charters.

I still think theres room for an econo fibreglass sea worthy cruising cat. Perhaps somewhat smaller, perhaps more lightly fitted out, with an outboard pod.

If there isnt perhaps I should get strip planking right away !

There is still the Seawind 1000xl

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

yes Im talking of Mahe
and no I havent had the pleasure



the comparisons Im drawing are from the equipment fit, yes the resulting experience is going to be completely different, but thats the whole reason Im making the comparison, bang for buck.

I think the 380 is just going out the bit extra, an extra head is common, theres an owners cabin version with a walk round berth. Its like a smaller version of the 440 pattern, you cant say that about the Mahe.

These are far more complex fitouts when you come to cost the materials and work required. In a way one could say that the Mahe offers a great deal in its plan and fitout, and it does so in a lightweight and cost effective way. That 'is' an achievement.

Trouble is that doesnt seem to me to be reflected in the pricing when they become within the price range of the unwashed such as I. Although I would have to concede I might be comparing replaced bareboats 380's with the Mahe's, its hard to tell.

I guess Im just disappointed that the Mahe is popular and costs that margin more second hand. And that I think I might prefer the simpler and lighter when it comes to fitout.

Based on your comment you haven't been aboard a Lagoon 380 OV either. There is no walkaround berth in the 380. This doesn't even fit into the Lagoon 39 or 400.

I have owned an older Lagoon 410 for a couple of years before I bought my Mahe and I have spent quite some time aboard a few 380s so I guess I can compare.

The Mahe is slightly shorter than the 380, in terms of waterline it's less than a foot. The hulls are wider in the Lagoons, this provides room for the head (or owners desk) beside the companion way and a bit more floor space in the aft cabin.
Carrying capacity is higher, but then empty displacement is higher, too.

Creature comfort:
The berths are almost equally sized. The Lagoon offers a bit more floor space and I like the big windows on the S2 models. Lagoons have doors for the lockers while the Mahe only has open shelfing. Looks a bit more simple and cheap but we are OK with this.
The front cabin is a tad smaller on the Mahe, the bow compartments are too small for a crew berth unless you hire a dwarf.

To call the Mahe galley tiny is simply wrong. Size and useability are equal to the 410 and 380. Not excellent as you can never have enough counterspace with galley up in a cat of this size but OK.
Galley storage and fridge size in the early Mahes is as good as the 380 but not as good as the 410. In the Mahe Evolution it's better than 380 and the 410.

I know the Mahe salon looks simple, but it's just the looks. It's ergonomics are better than on a 380 or 410 with the rounded settee. It took the french designers just about a decade to figure out that you can't comfortably put your feet up and read a book on a round settee. All current Lagoon & FP models changed to the boxy square design.
Earlier Mahes like mine lack the addition stool in front of the table so have limited seating & storage but that's an easy and cheap fix.
The navigation area on the Mahe is on par with the 380. The nav area on the 410 was a waste of space and an ergonomical nightmare.

The Mahe cockpit is on par with the early 380, the later 380 S2 had an optional built-in ice-box for additional seating so a bit better. The 410 cockpit is clearly much bigger and suited to entertaining 6-8 for al-fresco dinner while the Mahe table maxes out at 4 (5 with a portable stool).
The flush hardtop bimini is a big plus on the Mahe, the bimini of the 380 or 410 are a bit ugly. But older Mahe require some modification as it's not a full hardtop but only a solid centerpiece with canvas sides.

What I dislike about the Mahe is that some furnishing is not fully screwed / glued & sealed against the hull. The furniture is not an integral part of the boat, it just "stands" in the boat and is fixed at the bulkheads and floor. For example there are gaps between the hull and the cabin lockers, which is good to minimize squeaking in a swell but gives less privacy (e.g. the kids in the bow cabin can hear us talk in the salon).
I also dislike the "curver style" fibreglass steps into the hull. The wooden steps of the Lagoon are much nicer.
The Mahe deck seems to flex a bit more under my weight (OK, my fault), but I never noticed any flexing of the hulls while underway.


Overall the Lagoon 380 has a minuscule bit more room to offer in the cabin, salon and cockpit area. The owners version in particular is nice with a big head and dedicated shower, but the charter version has only two tiny heads with no room to shower. The single head of the Mahe is way bigger, but not as roomy as the 380 owners version.

The fitout of the Mahe is a bit lighter than on Lagoons, but the quality of the work is on par. Overall I see no huge difference in the fitout.
It is not a different class of boat, and certainly not a far more complex fitout or equipment. Just different and a minuscule bit bigger.


Sailing:
From a sailing perspective the Mahe is quicker and more responsive. Lower displacement, sleek hulls and good sail area pay off in better tacking angles and overal higher speed. But as soon as the seastate gets too rough the Mahe is bouncing and hobby horsing a bit more, slowing her down when beating against the wind. The weight and the wide hulls of the Lagoons provide more stability.
Some FP equipment seems a bit smaller than Lagoon, other equipment is on par or even oversized. Winches, some blocks and the ventilation hatches for example are smallish, but the windlass and autopilot ram are the same as on my Lagoon 410.
The construction is a bit different, with Lagoon using balsa core above the waterline and FP using foam core. I prefer foam, as potential water intrusion is not such a threat.
One big plus is to me the amount of foam floatation that the Mahe has built in. In the lower half of the bow compartment, under the central part of the settee, and under the after part of the aft berths. That's a few tons of flotation, while Lagoon are said to be sinkers (not sure and no intention to find out).


Bottom line: For coastal cruising I prefer the Mahe for the fun of sailing, though she is by no means limited to this. For crossing oceans I prefer the 410 simply for space, carrying capacity and smoother ride. The 380 is somewhere in the middle.
I would buy any of these in an instant, it just depends on price and availability. In fact I was looking for a 380 and lost some sort of bidding war on a 400 last year when I stumbled over a nice Mahe. We are really happy with the boat, especially with regard to "bang for the buck".
We might be tempted to upgrade to a late 410 S2 or an early 400 if we run into a real bargain but I'm not actively hunting for one. The perceived improvement from a Mahe to the Lagoon 380 is way too small for us to be worth the hassle of changing boats.


BTW: The price difference between Mahe and the 380 is maybe 5% on the price list but on the second hand market its more like 15-20%.
Yachtworld shows a couple of 2006-2008 Mahes below 140k Euro. Lagoon 380 are asking around 160-180k for the same vintage, and I haven't seen an owners version for that price.

Of course this is still very expensive compared to a 36ft mono but that doesn't compare well in terms of space and comfort. At the end the Mahe is one of the cheapest way to own a modern production cat.
With the recent end of the production for the Mahe I doubt it will get any cheaper.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In terms of systems, there isn't much difference with a 29ft mono. Even moving up to a 40' cat, there isn't much difference in systems (with the possible exception of single vs twin engine boats but I'm not clear what boats you are refering to but an extra small engine is probably only going to be $10-15k difference)

Think about cost of spars, standing rigging, winches, windlass, battery bank, electronics, heads, portholes and hatches, etc, etc
Every bit of hardware is maybe 4x the size, 8x the cost and is installed in much higher numbers.

Otherwise we would see entrepreneur builders getting into the market of 40ft cats for the price of a 29ft mono.

[ZULU40]

lagoon 380
Lagoon 380 - EXCORDIS - Yachting & Charters



Lagoon 380 saloon


Mahe Galley

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by smj

There is still the Seawind 1000xl

ummm
pass///

[smj]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

ummm
pass///

I didn't post it as I thought you may like it, I posted it because it fits into the title of this thread and hadn't been mentioned.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by smj

I didn't post it as I thought you may like it, I posted it because it fits into the title of this thread and hadn't been mentioned.

oh I see
sorry

[rabbi]

The first photo is not the berth of a Lagoon 380. No clue what it is, doesn't look like a Lagoon.

You are comparing the snapshot of the earlier Mahe galley with a touched up professional photo of the full salon of a late 380 S2. Thats not like for like.

Here is the early model 380 galley, not so shiny:


And this is a nice touched up shot of the Mahe salon (earlier model, not the newer Evolution):




Hint: These marketing photos are not real. I suggest you really set a foot on a boat first.
Or look at untouched youtube videos.

[rabbi]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to convince anyone that a Mahe is better than a 380.

It's similar, a tad smaller and lighter and a bit cheaper. But a 380 is certainly not a different class of boat as you seem to think.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by rabbi

The first photo is not the berth of a Lagoon 380. No clue what it is, doesn't look like a Lagoon.

You are comparing the snapshot of the earlier Mahe galley with a touched up professional photo of the full salon of a late 380 S2. Thats not like for like.

Here is the early model 380 galley, not so shiny:


And this is a nice touched up shot of the Mahe salon (earlier model, not the newer Evolution):




Hint: These marketing photos are not real. I suggest you really set a foot on a boat first.
Or look at untouched youtube videos.

Im a photographer, I understand the difference, I do this for a living
I hope you saw the source for the 380 berth, thats what I saw
Im not trying to be dishonest, I can only present what I find

I look at the plans, and I see what to expect
to me Mahe is both simpler and lighter
and remember I actually prefer that

then I look at YW s/h prices,
and I see 93 Lagoon 380s down to $134k, lots of choice

lagoon 380 Boats For Sale

Mahe, I get 16 down to US$144k, they go up fast

YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

I dont think Im being one eyed unreasonable
I can only see what I can see
if Im wrong, Im wrong, what can I say...

[rabbi]

Understood. Just remember that plans and photos can only tell so much.

And keep in mind that the Lagoon has been around much longer. The Mahe for 144k USD is model year 2007, the Lagoon 380 for 134k USD is model year 2000. To be fair the cheapest 2007 Lagoon 380 on YW is 189k USD.

Of course there are far more 380 on the market, simply because they sold many more cats. The 380 was _the_ charter cat for many years in the largest charter fleets around the globe. The Mahe never had that much charter appeal (three couples to share one head??).
Consequently quite a few Mahe have a history of private ownership. While this is certrainly possible to find in a 380 it typically comes at a premium.

At the end you get what you pay for.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Think about cost of spars, standing rigging, winches, windlass, battery bank, electronics, heads, portholes and hatches, etc, etc
Every bit of hardware is maybe 4x the size, 8x the cost and is installed in much higher numbers.

Otherwise we would see entrepreneur builders getting into the market of 40ft cats for the price of a 29ft mono.

I wasn't saying the whole boat was the same cost as a 29' mono, just the systems.

At the 40' cat you are probably correct but not by a huge margin.

In the 30-35' cats, the rigs aren't much different in size and the other hardware is pretty close in size.

Of course, we are seeing a move to ever larger boats.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

At the 40' cat you are probably correct but not by a huge margin.

In the 30-35' cats, the rigs aren't much different in size and the other hardware is pretty close in size.

Please tell the guy that will do my standing rigging next year

[ZULU40]

So where are we? Are we committing to spending circa $140k for an ostensibly usable boat. Or piecing together a previously euthanased 'project boat' if not by owner intervention then by simple neglect?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Please tell the guy that will do my standing rigging next year

If we are still talking about 35' cats, the rigs are typically pretty close in size to a 30' mono, so I would look at getting another quote. Of course me may just be seeing a guy "so rich" he can afford a cat and his prices go up accordingly.

The systems (The Galley, the Engine, the Plumbing, the Electrical, etc... )should all run about the same cost. Most cats use polycarbonate (or other plastic) windows that just glue on. Yes there are a few things but nothing drastic in terms of systems.