The Death of the Ketch ?

[boatsail]

My favorite is the cat ketch

[GaryMayo]

http://www.yachtcouncil.com/New/80'1...&vessel=112762

800,000 dollars

80 feet long

21 foot beam

Holds 2000 gallons of diesel.

250 hp catapillar

Captains cabin? No.

What? No private cabin???

Would you take 789,900 for her? Lol

My little 32 has a private captains cabin.

[billsull]

Originally Posted by DSDman

Ok I have a ketch but I know very little about sailing it and the various sail configurations. Bob or one of you old wise sea dogs want to explain all the different sails and where they go, mizzen mule, yankee kite, storm flipper??? I have not found a book out there that explains specifically how to sail or rig a ketch.

I make no claim to the "wise old sea dog" title, but I'll take stab at answering one part of the question. A mule sail is rigged to fill the empty space under the triatic stay (between the tops of the main mast and mizzen mast), but above the main sail leech.

Dabbler Sails has a nice explanation on their website (and he used a picture of his old boat (sistership to mine) to illustrate it's use):

Sailmakers - Dabbler Sails - Sail Lofts - Sails for small boats - Sail Makers

I'll leave explanations of the other sails to the sea dogs 'cause I don't have a clue!

DSD - As others are, I am in awe of the work you have done on your boat. Keep it up!

Regards,

[rolandgilbert99]

Originally Posted by billsull

A mule sail is rigged to fill the empty space under the triatic stay (between the tops of the main mast and mizzen mast), but above the main sail leech.
Regards,

Now the big question is: Do we really need a triatic stay? Some ketches have it, some don't. Mine come with one and it's a pain to go up the mast and attach it up there every time I bring down the masts! I was thinking of getting rid of it altogether... Bad idea?

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by rolandgilbert99

Now the big question is: Do we really need a triatic stay? Some ketches have it, some don't. Mine come with one and it's a pain to go up the mast and attach it up there every time I bring down the masts! I was thinking of getting rid of it altogether... Bad idea?

I guess you take your masts down seasonally,- mine haven't been down since 1985. They are keel-stepped and I change my shrouds without removing the masts. I do have a triatic and I would think that it's presence is dependant on engineering design. A removal of the triatic would require a re-evaluation of the independant support of the main and mizzen. What supports your main aft and your mizzen forward? My mizzen has little forward support beyond the triatic. Can you support your mizzen forward without interferance from the main boom?

[billsull]

Originally Posted by rolandgilbert99

Now the big question is: Do we really need a triatic stay? Some ketches have it, some don't. Mine come with one and it's a pain to go up the mast and attach it up there every time I bring down the masts! I was thinking of getting rid of it altogether... Bad idea?

I think it's a bad idea...

The triatic stay resists some of the fore and aft forces on the main and mizzen mast by passing it to the forestay of the main or the aft tending shrouds/stays on the mizzen. Some folks have replaced the fixed stay between the mastheads with a line fastened to the main masthead then run through a block on the mizzentop and then down to a cleat. Some of the newer cordage like amsteel has breaking strengths and stretch that allow it to be used instead of wire in some applications. I'd consult with a professional rigger though before making any changes.

We probably should start a new "how to rig and sail a ketch" thread instead of hijacking this one, but I'd like to see how other are sailing their "twin stickers" also. I have a mizzen staysail in the bag that I've never used.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by billsull

..................I have a mizzen staysail in the bag that I've never used.

I'm with you for all of your earlier post, but here you might as well be saying that you have Tootsie Roll Pops and never licked your way to the center!

[DSDman]

Now that's a funny analogy! Thanks for the encouraging words by the way. If I rob a small bank, I will start again for the winter. Yes definantly a thread on how to sail a ketch. Maybe one of the moderators can move the last few posts over into an appropriately named thread.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by DSDman

Ok I have a ketch but I know very little about sailing it and the various sail configurations. Bob or one of you old wise sea dogs want to explain all the different sails and where they go, mizzen mule, yankee kite, storm flipper??? I have not found a book out there that explains specifically how to sail or rig a ketch.

We are a Camper & Nicholson 58 Ketch so we are about your size. We find that the ketch rig does best when the winds fall aft of close hauled. If you are beating you will sail as a sloop. Having a cutter staysail makes the sail reduction easy as wind increases. We find the mizzen a poor windward sail.

If the wind is really high, you might consider loosing the main and splitting the rig to mizzen and furled jib or cutter staysail. This works on any point of sail.

We also have a storm tri-sail but ours has never been out of the bag.

Once the wind falls aft of close hauled and light to moderate, we run the mizzen, main, jib. Sometimes, we also add in the cutter staysail depending on the wind speed and point.

You will know if you are over-canvased as your weather helm increases. Keep this in mind at all times as wind speed increases.

Once the wind is close to the beam we add in the mizzen staysail. The tack will be on the boat centerline if the wind is on the beam. As the wind moves aft, you will move the foot to windward. For this. our tack has tow lines to attach to convenient port and starboard mooring cleats. In this way, we can work the tack port or starboard. This is easy since you will be running the mizzen staysail in light to moderate wind and moving the tack can be done by hand.

As the wind progresses aft, we add the spinnaker. For us, the spinnaker is only for apparent wind less than 12 knots. Above 12, we use the 135 jib and maybe also the cutter staysail. I am unable to pull the snuffer down if the wind is higher.

In any of the sail configurations, we watch the weather helm. As helm increases with higher wind, we get rid of sail area starting at the stern. We have noted that the trade off is an easier ride, easier steering and almost no loss of speed.

We don't have a mule and the admiral says I don't need one no matter how great it makes us look.

A Yankee is otherwise a jib. It has a high cut clew for a number of reasons. The high cut lets water pass below, useful in rough conditions. Its design is based on the geometry necessary to keep the sheeting angle constant as the sail is used to point or reach and as it is partially furled. THis make it a very versitile sail and easy to manage for short handed crew.

Hope this helps.

[billsull]

Originally Posted by CaptForce

I'm with you for all of your earlier post, but here you might as well be saying that you have Tootsie Roll Pops and never licked your way to the center!

Ouch! Guilty as charged - I haven't flown the mizzen staysail OR licked my way to the center of a tootsie pop! Next week I'll try to do both at the same time.

[rolandgilbert99]

Originally Posted by billsull

I think it's a bad idea...

The triatic stay resists some of the fore and aft forces on the main and mizzen mast by passing it to the forestay of the main or the aft tending shrouds/stays on the mizzen. Some folks have replaced the fixed stay between the mastheads with a line fastened to the main masthead then run through a block on the mizzentop and then down to a cleat. Some of the newer cordage like amsteel has breaking strengths and stretch that allow it to be used instead of wire in some applications. I'd consult with a professional rigger though before making any changes.

We probably should start a new "how to rig and sail a ketch" thread instead of hijacking this one, but I'd like to see how other are sailing their "twin stickers" also. I have a mizzen staysail in the bag that I've never used.

Yes, it makes sense keeping it since it holds the top of the mizzen forward and there is no other stay for that. The idea of a cordage is to be retained. I guess for now I will continue to climb the mast and attach the small turnbuckle at the top of the mizzen!

[Bash]

Originally Posted by GaryMayo

I also love the taller mast and sails on the sloop. All sailboats have something to be admired. Wonderful creations of beauty.

Agreed. Nothing like a tall stick to get the heart thumping.

[DSDman]

Nicholson58 thanks for the wisdom. I'm going to have to print that out and go back and interpret/ decipher all the terminology. Thats the sailing level I'm at. But rest assured I will figure it all out. I only have the main, mizzen, and a 135/150 % genoa (not sure). I also have a storm jib, but have not taken it out of the bag.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Bash

Agreed. Nothing like a tall stick to get the heart thumping.

My main is 80 feet and the mizzen is 48. No Triatic, Stays are 3/4 inch. Does that count?

We are out of the water as of Monday. Our last cruise was a cross-lake dash to Milwaukee. Its about 68 km. We had a nice northy wind for an east to west and west-east ride. Our peak speed by GPA was 11.4 with about 9.5 average under mizzen, miz-staysail, main, jib and cutter staysail. The return started under Spinnaker, main, Miz staysail and mizzen. Both transits finished with sharply increasing winds under headsails alone and 10 knots boat speed. The marina was empty and nobody to collect fees. . Great town, great restaurants, good beer and brew-pubs, great ride. Nice season ender.

[randyrhines]

Well maybe you fellas are all a lil right, ive been reading here 5 years about Ketches while i sailed and rebuilt my Catalina 27' (sloop rig) and dreamed of a owning a Allied Princess 36' "Ketch" which I have now owned for year.
My wife and eye bought her because she looks beautiful, high bows and stern overhangs, long arching sheer, Yes it was her lines that took us in for sure. 1. looks
next was 2. safety, She was built very very strong and well loved and looked after thru the years, we sail the great lakes, and so far i was in a couple of good blows with her, this fall, so wester 30 knots we were headed North to Tobermory from Port elgin. After the wind reached 25 knots , we doused the main reefed the jib a couple feet and carried on under jib and jigger, just sailing no engine, mostly under the autopilot, The wind reach 28 to 30 knots by noon, but the sun was warm and the day was clear, the full keel (modified) gave her an easy motion, The waves now were 9 to 10' breaking behind us, once in while the foredeck received a wash down, but we were dry with no dodger.
My point is i found all this info good. I just like the boat i bought and new it was maybe a rig of bygone era, who cares, we love and feel very privileged to slip our feet over her rails and cast off.
Well.. some say the Ketch is a couples rig, I think they are right also, mines nice an cozy at night, I am fortunate to have a wife who sails with me, And she feels safe in this boat..... so you might pass me easily with a sloop but I will just smile and wave, cause after reading everything I know i might have to come and ask one of my Bermudian Buddies if I can borrow some of those costly sail track slides thingys, that are always wearing out..................