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Old 26-04-2015, 22:48   #31
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by sandy stone View Post
Are you really saying that an experienced naval architect (Olin Stevens, Bill Shaw, Bob Perry) is not qualified to have an opinion on the suitability of a design for offshore use? (!)
Hi Sandy, We are all entitled to our blue water opinions and some carry more popular weight than others. However, "design" is the conceptual part whereas "build and execution" is the reality that all boat owners have to live and perhaps die with.


Olin Stevens had the benefit of a much more conservative client as predicting and avoiding weather systems in his early days was limited to the skills of the crew. The owner wanted a boat that would survive anything thrown at it.

Today, satellite tracking and weather services convinces the client that he can "manage" the weather.
So design priorities have evolved from safety to comfort and speed.

Modern designers also benefit from the large database to keep the more demanding and often unrealistic client signing those checks.

So as design concepts evolve and customers mindsets go from surviving the mostly unknown weather systems they would experience to managing a more known environment..... the only constant is the quality of the build.... To me that trumps design these days.
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Old 26-04-2015, 22:50   #32
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Each component of your body will be considered with the same maths. You may have a strikingly beautiful face but you maybe not proportioned in equal measure elsewhere. However, the mind has evolved to pay particular attention to the face.

...

You see this number in nature everywhere and of course we have learnt to apply it to things we make.
I think that when you go looking for this number in nature everywhere you naturally see it there, it's called observer bias. That's why the gold standard for studies, especially studies involving human subjects are double blind.

Case in point is the folks that link vaccines to autism. A lot of autism is diagnosed about the age that another round of vaccinations are normally scheduled so naturally people make the connection. In reality the kids are just reaching the age where it becomes diagnosable and coincidentally vaccines are scheduled. Also the kids are more likely to get a prompt from the pediatrician that something is not right and it should be looked into, the parents don't know what they are seeing or are in denial until then, and then about the same time vaccines are given they are educated about or forced to confront the symptoms.

The human mind has evolved to see patterns in a lot a clutter, a snake camouflaged in the leaves underfoot or the barest outline of a lion in the tall grass so it is no surprise that we see patterns where none exist.

There are a whole lot of numbers in nature, and most of them are pretty random. I think this one is pretty random too.
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Old 26-04-2015, 23:13   #33
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

The difference should be obvious... Go visit a boat show and tour the various offerings.


Video of three guys crapping their foulies in 30 knot winds on a non-blue water boat.



Video of a blue water boat in 55 knot winds.
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Old 26-04-2015, 23:20   #34
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Easier to flunk boats as not meeting some of the more measurable criteria than to prove boats are blue water. And many boats aren't blue water without blue water modifications and blue water sailors. The weakest link in any vehicle is usually the nut that holds the steering wheel (tiller, yoke, etc.).
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Old 27-04-2015, 00:42   #35
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

[QUOTE=Kenomac;1810804]
Video of three guys crapping their foulies in 30 knot winds on a non-blue water boat.
......
Video of a blue water boat in 55 knot winds.

Not a very fair comparison... a crew with not very much idea going to windward with maybe mid 30's over the deck in a 30something foot boat... compared with a 50 something foot boat off the wind and with maybe mid to high 40's over the deck....

Don't really think those 2 vids prove anything
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Old 27-04-2015, 01:51   #36
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I think that when you go looking for this number in nature everywhere you naturally see it there, it's called observer bias. That's why the gold standard for studies, especially studies involving human subjects are double blind.

Case in point is the folks that link vaccines to autism. A lot of autism is diagnosed about the age that another round of vaccinations are normally scheduled so naturally people make the connection. In reality the kids are just reaching the age where it becomes diagnosable and coincidentally vaccines are scheduled. Also the kids are more likely to get a prompt from the pediatrician that something is not right and it should be looked into, the parents don't know what they are seeing or are in denial until then, and then about the same time vaccines are given they are educated about or forced to confront the symptoms.

The human mind has evolved to see patterns in a lot a clutter, a snake camouflaged in the leaves underfoot or the barest outline of a lion in the tall grass so it is no surprise that we see patterns where none exist.

There are a whole lot of numbers in nature, and most of them are pretty random. I think this one is pretty random too.
If we have any kind of observational bias it is certainly not a concious ones. It is an observational truth. The number exists everywhere.
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Old 27-04-2015, 02:00   #37
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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The difference should be obvious... Go visit a boat show and tour the various offerings.


Video of three guys crapping their foulies in 30 knot winds on a non-blue water boat.



Video of a blue water boat in 55 knot winds.
I see no difference. I see the first out of control a little (maybe racing) on a close reach and the other on a broad reach with use of a dodger.

So are you saying it is the dodger that makes one a blue water and not the other?
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Old 27-04-2015, 02:08   #38
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

They both have dodgers ( I think dodgers are for the girlies but thats by the by...) but when you see the rat's nest that resulted from letting the stbd jib sheet fly, only one turn on the winch when trying to furl the jib, handle left in the port winch, rail under, main sheet centered on the traveller,...... Its nothing to do with the boat... its all to do with the crew...
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Old 27-04-2015, 02:33   #39
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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1.6180 - The human mind is geared to this constant. If the proportions of your face fit close to this ratio then you will be considered beautiful. The more you deviate from it the less beautiful you are.

Basically the above number is the mean average of beauty. People who are not average are less beautiful to look at.

Golden ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beauty is not as subjective as you might think.
The "Golden Ratio" is mostly myth.

The Golden Ratio: Design's Biggest Myth | Co.Design | business + design

Beauty is mostly subjective. The biggest proof of that is how norms of what is considered beautiful are very different in different countries and cultures.

Even for boats... Some of the yachts tauted here as proper blue water are in my view downright ugly.
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Old 27-04-2015, 03:20   #40
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

To me it is not so obvious? What must a blue water boat have to be classified as such?

Dog/deck house?
I don't think so as we see many boats without that people consider as blue water.

Full keel?
I don't think so as we see many other keels in use with with a blue water tag.

Heavy displacement?
I don't see this as a prerequisite. Medium and light are used in other "blue water" boats.

Secure Cockpits?
We see centre cockpits, rear cockpits, wide and narrow cockpits in broad range of vessel that would call themselves blue water.

Tankage?
Don't think this is a limiting factor. We see many ocean crossings on very small boats with limited capacity and of course we have water makers these days.

Rig and sails?
Most builders seem to be using a common parts bin from just two or three main suppliers for booms, furlers, masts and general rigging so it cant be this.

Arrangement?
Seems that primary hull design and size dictate arrangement.

Engine reliability?
manufacturers do not make reliable and not so reliable engines.

Clear decks?
Hallberg-Rassey's have two big rigging obstructions midway up the deck you have to limbo around. It cant be this.

Hull Material?
Steel, Glass, aluminium, exotics. They are all sinking. Can't be this.

Design?
Bespoke and production all comply with the same CE standard for ocean passage and does a boat have to be slow or heavy or big to qualify as a blue water boat. Me no think so.

Holistic build quality/strength/components/over design?
I would suggest this would be the prime candidate of distinction but how do we measure it? We can't easily and because we can't we rely on our intuition that full keel and heavy displacement equals a sea worthy blue water boat. (Baloney) If a yard or designer wants to sell us a boat based on its "blue water" credentials then surely these merits should be measurable against some kind of standard.
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Old 27-04-2015, 05:01   #41
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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The "Golden Ratio" is mostly myth.

The Golden Ratio: Design's Biggest Myth | Co.Design | business + design

Beauty is mostly subjective. The biggest proof of that is how norms of what is considered beautiful are very different in different countries and cultures.

Even for boats... Some of the yachts tauted here as proper blue water are in my view downright ugly.
We have a number. That number can be applied to many things we find attractive in nature. We have a number. That number is used to design many things we find attractive and seductive as consumers.

I have lived in 5 or 6 countries and worked in just under 20. I found the values to be the same. Beauty is hardly subjective. It is mathematical and we all have common sense of ideal proportion.

Your reference site which is hardly academic says.. "The Sacrament of the Last Supper, 1955, Salvador Dali. This was painted on a Golden Rectangle-proportioned canvas, but the Golden Ratio has nothing to do with why we find it beautiful." The point is that Salvador Dali was attracted to the proportions of this canvas because they dial in to our sense of what is right.

Things that are ugly can be beautiful but this is something learnt. I hold some Images in my head of boats that are also quite frankly quite ugly pugly in proportions but I have swathed these images in romantic notions of positive lifestyle so I have grown to like the images and find them attractive. If I got on one of these boats and they made me puke my guts up my aesthetic processing would kick in and change my opinion.

It used to be thought that our appreciation of a painting is presumed to be cognitively distinct from our appreciation of something natural but neuroscience has shown this not to be the case. We consider everything in the beginning from an aesthetic baseline. It is only after we interact with something not fitting this baseline and find that it is good for us that we can then find it attractive.

Excerpt.

"aesthetic processing is, at its core, the appraisal of the value of an object -- in other words, an assessment of whether an object is “good for me” or “bad for me.”

To help us the baseline I mentioned before gives us a fast reference point to measure with and that is why people with features that fall outside of what is regarded as the "norm" are given a wide berth and those that are very close to the "norm" are engaged with. Being Mr or Mrs average is a good thing in society.
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Old 27-04-2015, 06:28   #42
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Paulanthony and others,

If you can't see the difference between the two boats in the videos... Then nobody's going to be able to show or teach you the difference. You're on your own to figure it out, or more likely your biased mind is already made up and this thread is a complete waste of time.

Both boats are nearly the same length, both have Dodgers (which seemed to elude you on the second video. The first boat is light displacement and totally out of control and being knocked around in relatively light conditions, the wind is only around 30 knots (look at the waves... Very small). The second video shows a boat in winds and waves exerting way over twice the forces on the boat with over 55 knots of continuous wind. But rather than being out of control, the heavy displacement boat remains completely balanced and in control. Just look at the difference in the conditions and the overbuilt quality and strength of the components on the deck, rigging, mast and shrouds. It's the sum of all the components which makes the difference. You're looking at individual pieces. Do you believe a Bentley or a Ferrari is the same as a Toyota Scion? And it's only the driver that makes the difference since all three cars will get you from point "A" to point "B". In most cases... It's the Scion driver who believes this crap logic.

If you can't see the difference.... You must be blind or you're not truly looking for answers. Do some reading and educate yourself.
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Old 27-04-2015, 06:29   #43
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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To me it is not so obvious? What must a blue water boat have to be classified as such?
Sustainable integrity in all design aspects that will keep the vessel operating safely relative to the prevailing conditions at Sea.
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Old 27-04-2015, 07:58   #44
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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You are quite right. They can not agree which is why there is no such thing a blue water boat. There is only a CE A boat.
+1!

BTW There used to be (still is, in fact) that LLoyds something too. I did read some of the requirements and I could see how they applied. With CE A I am not quite sure what the EC squreheaded, deeppocketed "experts" had on their minds (except for: it is Friday I want booz and I am stuck here writing CE A).

Hahaha!


Cheers,
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Old 27-04-2015, 08:23   #45
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Each component of your body will be considered with the same maths.
Be very very careful. Your thread has headed off towards crashing old cars on the decks of freighters heading for the south pole, complete with satellite images.

The thread will never right itself because it is not a bluewater thread.
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