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Old 28-05-2016, 22:29   #376
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Here's a shot of RS, demonstrating the pros and cons (abstractly)

As can be seen, the rudders are WAY out from the centerline. This leads to some trauma at the dock.

However, the way the boat is designed, she is quite tender until the hard chine is immersed, and then she becomes very stiff. So, one of the rudders is in the correct place to exert the most steering control when reaching or sailing upwind. You can also imagine how little of the upwind rudder is exposed. It lessens the chances of impact over some of the other designs. They still catch kelp just the same though... Click image for larger version

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Old 28-05-2016, 22:43   #377
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

And, since this started about pilothouses, and I've got the stick with the pictures on it, here's the hard dodger mentioned previously. We've sailed in some damn cold weather, around freezing, and have found it to be almost adequate. Were we to contemplate Dockhead's destinations, we would enclose the back of the dodger with removable panels, making an enclosed room of sorts.
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Old 29-05-2016, 00:44   #378
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I know what you are getting at and what the real purpose is. Sun Odyssey owners have quite a reputation:
Why do you think there were lots of finger prints and I was being too polite to mention the other marks on the pole
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Old 29-05-2016, 03:47   #379
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by TJ D View Post
And, since this started about pilothouses, and I've got the stick with the pictures on it, here's the hard dodger mentioned previously. We've sailed in some damn cold weather, around freezing, and have found it to be almost adequate. Were we to contemplate Dockhead's destinations, we would enclose the back of the dodger with removable panels, making an enclosed room of sorts.
Attachment 125112
Nice hard dodger.

My own dodger is not hard, but is very long, and there is a hard windshield.

This of course is great shelter in cold weather. I could put a curtain from the aft end of it and have an "enclosed room of sorts". This is fine for relatively short passages in temperatures above freezing.

But there's no place to sit, no proper work space, or anything (although I have all my instruments there and have a bracket to mount a waterproof tablet running GoFree), so it's not a pilothouse. So even overnight passages in temperatures below 10 are not really good, with this.


As I write this, I am at a latitude much higher than Cape Horn, equal to Southern Greenland, and equal to that of some of the Antarctic islands. And I hope to go much higher, starting next year. A real pilothouse is going to be essential.
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Old 29-05-2016, 04:17   #380
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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As I write this, I am at a latitude much higher than Cape Horn, equal to Southern Greenland, and equal to that of some of the Antarctic islands. And I hope to go much higher, starting next year. A real pilothouse is going to be essential.


Don't be such a drama queen, I lived for 16 years at the same latitude as southern Greenland (I only just realised that). It's no big deal being up that far north when you are talking in the Baltic especially as you're not talking winter sailing. It's almost summer up there now, just wear a summer jumper. The same applies to going to the far north of the Gulf of Bothina.

All you might need is a fully enclosed soft cover for the cockpit, so you can sit in it if you want to stay up entertaining and proving to guests that the sun really doesn't set.
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Old 29-05-2016, 05:11   #381
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post


Don't be such a drama queen, I lived for 16 years at the same latitude as southern Greenland (I only just realised that). It's no big deal being up that far north when you are talking in the Baltic especially as you're not talking winter sailing. It's almost summer up there now, just wear a summer jumper. The same applies to going to the far north of the Gulf of Bothina.

All you might need is a fully enclosed soft cover for the cockpit, so you can sit in it if you want to stay up entertaining and proving to guests that the sun really doesn't set.
Well . . .

Yes, I am dramatizing the latitude a little, you are right, and you caught me there. We are way up North here, but the Baltic in summer is a big lake, and no reason to be out in anything really cold or really bad.

But I sail in the English Channel in winter, and THAT is definitely not for sissies. Same latitude as Cape Horn, and that's a fair comparison.

In any case, for someone who grew up in the 30's (latitude, not years ), to see 60N on the GPS is still pretty amazing.


Next summer, God willing, I will sail through the White Sea and Barents Sea and across the top of Norway, more than 70N, and that is definitely high latitude sailing in every sense of the word. Unfortunately my new boat will be still only a glimmer in my eye by then, so I will have to make do with what I have. I think a curtain behind the dodger is probably the thing.


I do have a full cockpit enclosure, and I used it for one North Sea crossing in pouring down rain. It was a Godsend in those conditions, but still no kind of substitute for a pilothouse. It's not heated, not completely watertight, and it's hard to see out of it, or handle the sails.
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Old 29-05-2016, 05:14   #382
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Put it simply

DH wants a boat good upwind under F7-8 conditions.

You need a strong design, upon which to implement a number of gale-ready measures, as per helsm, sails, ballast, ventilation, comfort... I'd say in due order

It means, buoyancy on tips, length, one mast,special sails of custom design, water ballast maybe, a plank-on-edge hull, no doubt.

PH, AP, heating, etc. As convenient to best salesmanship


Here in Sicily, even 22' fishing boats of tradition have a stand-up PH :-)
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Old 29-05-2016, 05:29   #383
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

With a flap over the back you can leave the cabin door open with the heater running full bore. Hot air rises and the dodger will get reasonably warm .

It is amazing what a difference it makes to the temperature below as well, as it stops all the warm air escaping as soon as you open the companionway.

Moisture from cooking also vents out into the enclosed dodger area, keeping the boat drier inside.
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Old 29-05-2016, 05:35   #384
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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With a flap over the back you can leave the cabin door open with the heater running full bore. Hot air rises and the dodger will get reasonably warm .

It is amazing what a difference it makes to the temperature below as well, as it stops all the warm air escaping as soon as you open the companionway.

Moisture from cooking also vents out into the enclosed dodger area, keeping the boat drier inside.
Yes, that's what I will do. I'm also going to add a bus heater under the companionway to pump out extra heat when the engine is running.

I don't care about moisture from cooking, because I have powered extract ventilation in the galley (so fantastic, and I just don't understand why all boats don't have this).

But I will still have to stand in the companionway on watch. That gets old on a 6 hour night watch, let me tell you. My fondest dream at the moment, of almost erotic quality, is to be able to sit at a good nav table on watch, behind a watertight door, but two steps from the winches in case I need to trim sail. Like on that Boreal which inspired this thread.
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Old 29-05-2016, 05:49   #385
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

^^^All good ideas, I like the idea of a range hood sucking out any steam...

I have to agree about the pilothouse, mind you that mast compression pole has got me thinking...
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Old 29-05-2016, 06:01   #386
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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. . . mind you that mast compression pole has got me thinking...
Yes, me too, and great thanks to whoever posted about the pros and cons of deck stepped mast -- which added a lot to my knowledge. It's much more complicated than I thought. That question has gone back onto the "open question" list.
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Old 29-05-2016, 06:03   #387
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by TJ D View Post
And, since this started about pilothouses, and I've got the stick with the pictures on it, here's the hard dodger mentioned previously. We've sailed in some damn cold weather, around freezing, and have found it to be almost adequate. Were we to contemplate Dockhead's destinations, we would enclose the back of the dodger with removable panels, making an enclosed room of sorts.
Attachment 125112
Nice boat, out of curiosity, where rest the mast , i mean that structure like a pyramid with a Hatch in one side??
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Old 29-05-2016, 08:25   #388
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

DH--you need not compromise if you have made a semi-custom boat, designed by a pro, and built by a reputable yard that specializes in aluminum. Otherwise there are many used boats that lend themselves to the addition of a pilothouse, and whose value would be improved by such.

Once a yachtsman has spent much time at sea he is bound to develop a good sense of what works for him and what are his bare essentials. A stock, production boat usually falls far short of meeting his needs. And so a lot of customizing is then required to finish the boat. Adding a hard dodger or pilothouse can be part of that customizing. But a new, semi-custom build might be a better approach, from the beginning, especially from a resale perspective.

An alternative to the typical super-wide stern, to provide dinghy storage, even a double-ended boat can have an extra-large cargo hatch built into the aft deck (of a center-cockpit boat) and a simple crane to do the work. In this manner the hull's integrity is not compromised. And the hull design need not take on absurdly exaggerated proportions, which might require dual helms, for example.

A pilothouse can be designed in such a way that it's aft bulkhead can be totally enclosed, for bad weather, or left mostly open much of the rest of the time.
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Old 29-05-2016, 09:58   #389
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Yes, me too, and great thanks to whoever posted about the pros and cons of deck stepped mast -- which added a lot to my knowledge. It's much more complicated than I thought. That question has gone back onto the "open question" list.
Are you referring to Poiu's post that has you thinking?
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Old 29-05-2016, 10:41   #390
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

[QUOTE=neilpride;2131523]Nice boat, out of curiosity, where rest the mast , i mean that structure like a pyramid with a Hatch in one side??


The 'Pod'? The dog needed a place to sleep on deck.

Not really. The reason that was done was to bring the structure of the boat up to the point where the main would still have more or less conventional geometry, but the boom loading is taken up by the vessel and not the mast. It's all about not interfering with the column loading on the mast.

The boat was built in 1996, and carbon masts were still relatively new. There had been some failures due to boom loading, this was the answer. Probably less important now than 20 years ago, but the engineering is still sound.

The pod is very heavily built, with 2 full-width bulkheads below to take the load. No stripper poles below...

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