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Old 28-05-2016, 06:16   #361
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You certainly know that Pogo makes race boats (much before making cruising boats) and regarding cruising boats has making them on the last 15 years but regarding the boats I am talking about, the 10.50, the 12.50 and the 50 only on the last 10 years, for the smaller much less for the two last ones.

The owners that I know have 12.50 and as I said are around 50 or older. Here you have a photo of a owner of a Pogo 50, the older guy on the right: he does not appear to be 30


So, of what Pogos are you talking about? the ones that passed on your shipyard?

Mini racer Pogos? Class 40 racing Pogos? Old 8.50 cruising Pogos (very Spartan), 12.50 cruising Pogo? Cruising Pogo 50?

Anyway having them in your shipyard proves my point: For the ones that sail them they are voyage boats. Not many around but several have passed by a small shipyard on the other side of the pond!!!!! For that to happen it can only mean that the comparatively few that are around voyage a lot.
I never put in doubt the ability of a Pogo to sail long distance, i see they are well built and terrible fast boats, in the other hand i dont think they are the right plataform to sail long distances for the casual family , most likely for those bravo sailors who want speed and burn some adrenaline, thats fine, but to call a Pogo a cruisng boat in terms of what its considered for the vast mayority a cruising boat i think is plain wrong,,, so if i see a mini 6,50 in the other side of the pond can i say it,s a cruising boat? i dont think so...

The problem is what you consider a offshore cruising boat compared with the rest, reading sailing magazines and asking Mr Google from a condo marina its not going to change the reality, by the way Paolo i dont own a shipyard , im a partner in a rigging bussines and repair facility, just to be clear...

Also i can say i like a lot the Pogo 50, not much the 12,50 or the 10, it can be a terrific boat in the right hands , just to be clear they can and actually they sail to any part of the world , just in the right hands....
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Old 28-05-2016, 07:10   #362
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

I just found this one , could be a strong candidate for hig latitude sailing, very similar to Boreal. Its built by Futuna Yachts.
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Old 28-05-2016, 08:30   #363
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

I read few comments about deck and keel stepped masts, OK, let me put my grain in this point since this is my trade area, some cruisers believe that a deck stepped mast have 0 negative impacts and lots of pros in the end, not far from reality but to me you need to consider few aspects, a deck stepped mast have some negative isues , in a dismasting scenario you probably end with a clear deck, that mean no rest of the spar anywhere since they tend to fall over and in the cutting operation they end in the bottom of the ocean with all the gear involved, not good if you are thousands miles from land, a keel stepped mast normally break at the first or 2 spreader height and if you are lucky you can end with several feets of spar left to rig a jury rig, most boats I see with no mast at all are deck stepped mast, then you better have the rig specifications from the builder or if is a custom boat your own rig dimensions, why??


Well let me put this example , a german aluminium cutter broke the spar last year, deck steeped mast. it come to us with no mast specifications at all, we try to contact the builder but is out of bussines and mast makers have no info about that boat, so we end doing our home work from scracht and design a double spreader mast for this boat , obviously a hard work since we have no previous dimensions, loads etc.. we make a mast with a little overkill specifications and all end well, but the owner pay a sum of cash extra for the design and the work involved, several visits to the boat to take deck dimensions, lots of emails to rigging suppliers , mast makers, etc... a long wait with a sumbrella in the deck.


Another point to consider is deck stepped masts have a 20% or more compression load compared to a keel steeped mast, is obvious the uppers and lowers are tighter than a keel stepped mast, putting extra strain in chainplates and tangs, if you are unlucky and one wire snap in a deck stepped mast is over, in a keel stepped mast if you are fast at the helm and make a tack really quick you can save the day, a keel stepped mast can stay upright with a lower or d1 d2 gone, overall I can say keel stepped mast have a better life span and are easy to tune , the classic saying I have rain water in the bilge or my mast leak inside its a thing of the past , and some folks don't like to have the mast in the middle of the saloon and I can agree with this guys since I don't like to but if you don't like the mast in the middle of the salon also I guess you don't like the compression post doing the same thing unless you have one of those preety aluminium bulkheads doing the job.


That's all to me both sides are compromises , the deck stepped mast is cheaper and easy to unsteep and steep , for offshore work I put my money in a keel stepped mast. Cheers.
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Old 28-05-2016, 12:49   #364
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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....
The problem is what you consider a offshore cruising boat compared with the rest, reading sailing magazines and asking Mr Google from a condo marina its not going to change the reality,...
You did not have answered me. Those two Pogos on the place where you work where what? Racing Pogos (6.5 mini racer, class 40) old Pogo 8.5, or what?

You are as misinformed about my tastes in boats as you are misinformed about my lifestyle. I rarely go to marinas and when I go I go to the cheap ones...and I don't like to be there.

Regarding what you say I consider an offshore cruising boat it is pretty irrelevant (I consider lots of boats offshore boats). What is relevant is the use given to the boats by the owners, the design program (according to the NA) and if they go offshore or not and how do they perform on those conditions.

Regarding the Pogo not being a family boat, not all families are the same. The owner I know better is a Belgian surgeon with grown up "kids" and a wife. Most of them had made sportive sailing, love sailing and it was the family that chose the boat as the ideal cruising offshore boat, the one that offers them sufficient interior cruising amenities and enough sailing pleasure (Pogo 12.50).

They sail mostly on the North sea and are making plans for a voyage. You can read the impressions regarding the boat posted by the owner (over 50 year's old) on my blog. They are very happy with their choice.
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Old 28-05-2016, 13:01   #365
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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...
That's all to me both sides are compromises , the deck stepped mast is cheaper and easy to unsteep and steep , for offshore work I put my money in a keel stepped mast. Cheers.
If keel stepped masts were not more efficient some race boats would use them and as you know all use keel stepped masts.

The big advantage of deck stepped masts is on the interior design and preventing rain ingress, not pure efficiency regarding the function.
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Old 28-05-2016, 13:06   #366
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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If keel stepped masts were not more efficient some race boats would use them and as you know all use keel stepped masts.

The big advantage of deck stepped masts is on the interior design and preventing rain ingress, not pure efficiency regarding the function.
So,who say keel stepped mast are more efficient, sorry I don't get your point...

And, I don't understand your 2 point, what you mean,? racers choose keel or deck stepped mast for what reason?

Interior design??? lol, how?
Preventing rain ingress? actually with a inner dam in the stick you get a bone dry bilge, just saying.
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Old 28-05-2016, 13:34   #367
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
So,who say keel stepped mast are more efficient, sorry I don't get your point...

And, I don't understand your 2 point, what you mean,? racers choose keel or deck stepped mast for what reason?

Interior design??? lol, how?
Preventing rain ingress? actually with a inner dam in the stick you get a bone dry bilge, just saying.
I have a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40 and a couple of berths over is a Sun Fast 40 which is the same boat except for a deck stepped mast and a few other goodies. The SF mast is a little taller but most noticeably is is much slender and has 3 instead of 2 sets of spreaders. I'm guessing that keel stepped allows for the lighter mast which is good for performance

As for interior design, the SF40 has an aluminum mast going through the saloon whilst my SO40 has a shiny stainless steel pole.
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Old 28-05-2016, 13:44   #368
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I have a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40 and a couple of berths over is a Sun Fast 40 which is the same boat except for a deck stepped mast and a few other goodies. The SF mast is a little taller but most noticeably is is much slender and has 3 instead of 2 sets of spreaders. I'm guessing that keel stepped allows for the lighter mast which is good for performance

As for interior design, the SF40 has an aluminum mast going through the saloon whilst my SO40 has a shiny stainless steel pole.
You have the keel stepped version or the deck stepped ?
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Old 28-05-2016, 13:56   #369
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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You have the keel stepped version or the deck stepped ?
Deck... A shiny SS pole is an interior design negative on a "guys" boat, lots of fingerprints and more important things to do than polish it
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Old 28-05-2016, 15:01   #370
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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Deck... A shiny SS pole is an interior design negative on a "guys" boat, lots of fingerprints and more important things to do than polish it
I know what you are getting at and what the real purpose is. Sun Odyssey owners have quite a reputation:
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Old 28-05-2016, 16:16   #371
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

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I just found this one , could be a strong candidate for hig latitude sailing, very similar to Boreal. Its built by Futuna Yachts.
The forfuna looks good, I like the very slight bow rake, and the functional pilothouse. Not so sure about the twin rudders for high lats, been to Antarctica 3 times on a boat with twin rudders and grew to hate them with a passion. They hit every bit of ice that slid along the hull, caught patagonian kelp, and were incredibly vulnerable if we ran aground. Not to mention all the issues with control caused by the windward rudder doing weird things as it alternately ventilates and stalls then suddenly powers up again with the roll and heel of the boat.

Particularly bad control when broad reaching in a big sea. Say on stb tack As the boat powered up and wanted to round up we would need to wind on some port rudder. As the boat rolled to port the stb rudder would lift out and let go due to being mostly in the air, so we would need to wind on a heap more rudder to stop a broach. Now broach averted the boat would roll back to stb and the stb rudder would catch, and unless you had taken off all of the port rudder the steering force would double with two rudders now working rather than one and the boat would quickly round down and gybe in the blink of an eye. Nasty and very non progressive helm response.

Also all the extra friction in the system made the helm very 'dead'

My Brothers boat(sponsored), is a sunfast 3600 with twin rudders. He likes them on his surfboard, and probably needs them on such a wide light boat. But he says there are big issues tuning in the exact toe in/toe out values. It made a very big difference to handling and speed, and I think he said the ideal amount changed with different speeds and headings, so for a cruiser its one more fiddly thing to get right. Maybe this was some of the issues with the system I used?

All this not to mention the issues with slow speed handling and no prop wash. Boreal have it right I think with the twin boards aft for high lat stuff.

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Old 28-05-2016, 17:26   #372
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Snowy, very good points about the evils of twin rudders in high lat situations... or any other heavy weather for that matter. Had not considered those drawbacks before, and they seem significant.

Maybe that's why you never see adds for those designs with ice floating nearby!

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Old 28-05-2016, 19:02   #373
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Ahh, twin rudders. We have 2 on Rocket Science, and I must confess that we have a love/hate relationship with them.

First, a prop in the middle of the boat with 2 outboard rudders SUCKS in the marina. We don't have a thruster, it's on the list of upgrades when budget/time allow. Basically, if the boat's not going about 2-3 knots in either forward/reverse, it does not answer the rudder at all. We have to perform what we call the 'Captain Ron' docking maneuver to have any control. Dockhands have run away in terror before (all while Jenny casually waits to step off with the spring line). We do it all the time, and it's ok, but tight marinas cause us a lot more stress and ego damage than any previous boat.

Notwithstanding the docking issues, here are the cons, as I see them.

1. They're subject to impact and catching kelp. This can be better or worse depending on design. In our case, the windward rudder is often just about out of the water when sailing, so it's not as bad as some, but when we're around kelp, we do have to cut it off regularly. The potential for impact really does require some good engineering. Our rudders are carbon, and both the blades and the shaft are nearly an inch of solid CF. The rudder tubes are even more stout. It's what has to be done to have a reasonably good level of strength considering the location. This was not cheap.

2. the linkage is somewhat complex, and does reduce the 'feel' of the helm. I don't find it to be all that bad, but I've had a few distance racer types sail with me, and they felt that the heavier helm would drive them nuts on a Transpac or the like.

3. if we ground on a falling tide, and the boat lays over, I have no idea if we would still have a rudder when we re-floated. Our keel is very deep, so a 'normal' grounding poses no danger to the rudders. Going dry is a different story.


The pros:

1. I've found the sailing performance to be really stellar. One rudder is always in pretty much the right place when beating or reaching, giving us control that we have not found on a single-ruddered boat. We can reach at 12 knots with one hand on the wheel. It's quite something, and while the rudders don't create that condition all by themselves, they do contribute.

2. At surfing/planing speeds, they really come into their own. The boat tends to flatten out anyway once she gets up on a plane or starts surfing, so both rudders are working together. At displacement speeds, however, I have noted some degree of the difficulties that Snowpetrel describes.

Generally, I think that the twin rudder trend is probably not all that beneficial for boats which aren't being sailed quite fast. They are probably more of a liability on something along the lines of a Halberg Rassey than an asset.

I would absolutely not spec twins for any boat venturing around ice, unless they were of the 'kick up' variety. This design makes a ton of sense, but is probably going to stay confined to the racing circles for quite a long time.

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Old 28-05-2016, 21:05   #374
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

Nice even handed post, TJ. Thanks for that. I'm not likely to ever buy another boat, but i'm learning a lot here.

Jim
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Old 28-05-2016, 21:07   #375
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Re: Pilothouse Variations -- Boreal

^^ Thanks TJ, thats a good summary, of the pro's and cons, and very interesting to hear your experiences, as I have only sailed the one boat with twin rudders. And some of the issues might have been due tobother factors.

But I think it is interesting that even in the racing circles they aren't that common, except on the really wide, light open style boats. Anyway I guess time will tell. How they work out on cruising boats. They have been around for a while. I think Philip Jeantots first Credit Agrigole in the 80's was one of the first boats to use them. So they arent all that new a concept.

It is interesting to compare boats like David Adams True Blue to Soldini's kodak.

True blue with a single rudder beat Kodak with two.
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