Pearson Vanguard

[sluissa]

Currently looking at a 1964 Pearson Vanguard 33 footer. I've been to look at it and it seems in pretty good shape for a boat it's age. A few non-standard features though, like a junk rig.

Just curious about any opinions on this type of boat, good or bad.

[Squeaks]

Coincidence as earlier today I was reminded of my contacting the owners (goadarama@yahoo.com) a couple of years ago about their junk-rig conversion (I believe they got the boat w/o a rig). I seem to recall that they had drawn up several concept rigs and wondered how the conversion worked out. Also, check out the junk rig forum (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/) and (www.pearsonvanguard.org). I like Vanguards as being solid and affordable cruise-capable boats.
John _/)

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha Sluissa,
Pretty good boat but old enough that prior care makes a big difference in its value. Don't buy anything without a reputable surveyor looking at it first. If it has been well maintained then it'll be a good boat.
I don't care for the junk rig but many people (on the coast of China) really like them.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[sluissa]

There's no way I could afford a professional survey, so I'm just going to have to go on my own judgement with the advice of a few friends hopefully.

Squeaks, I believe that the people that are selling are the same people you contacted before. PM me if you want current contact info for them.

[Steve Rust]

Unless you really love the junk rig or the boat comes very cheap look elsewhere. The cost to get rid of this ridiculous rig (oops, stepped into it) and replace it with a proper rig may be more than the boat is worth. Aside from that he Vanguard is a solid boat and would make good low budget cruiser.

[Sailormann]

There's no way I could afford a professional survey, so I'm just going to have to go on my own judgement with the advice of a few friends hopefully.

If you can't afford a survey then you REALLY can't afford to keep a boat.

[sluissa]

Originally Posted by Sailormann

If you can't afford a survey then you REALLY can't afford to keep a boat.

I knew I'd get at least one comment like this. If there is one thing I've learned from this site is that if I wait until I have "enough" money to go sailing, I'll never make it. Even if this is a mistake, it's a mistake I need to make to learn from it. As an analogy, I can have every person in the world tell me the stove is hot, but until I touch it, I don't know what hot is or why I should avoid it.

I think ssullivan had a similar situation with one or more of his threads recently. I don't need people telling me this is a stupid idea and that I'm wrong to do this. I already know there's a chance that both of those are correct, but I'm willing to consider doing it anyway.

[GordMay]

Don’t shoot the messenger, just because the (requested) advice offered is not what you wished to hear.

Real friends aren't "yes-men”. A true friend is always supportive, but being supportive doesn't mean agreeing all the time.

To offer effective advice about how to indulge in foolish or dangerous activities would not be an act of friendship.

"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't."
Erica Jong

Of course, if you didn’t ask for advice ...

A duck goes into a bar and orders a shot of vodka and drinks it.
He orders another and drinks it.
He orders another and drinks it.
He orders another and drinks it.
He orders another and drinks it.
He orders another and drinks it.
A lady sitting nearby says to the duck "You know drinking like that isn't good for you, You could get liver disease or kidney disease or heart failure"
And the duck says "My grandfather lived to be 107 years old."
And the lady said "Did he drink a lot?"
And the duck said "No, but he knew how to mind his own damn business."

[sluissa]

I had a long post typed up defending myself, but it seems pretty useless in hindsight.

In any case, thanks to the two who did answer.

[Squeaks]

Sluissa:
No shortage of opinions from sailors, eh? I wish I had more experience with junk rigs as they have worked for centuries and offer good alternatives to wresteling on a foredeck in the pitch of hell with a foresail. So keep me posted on your progress and if a contact is available for the original owners for their feedback on the conversion.
John _/)

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha Sluissa,
I've boughten boats without surveys. One worked out really good because it was a production boat like the Pearson. The other is something that I knew had problems but didn't think would have that many problems.
There are some very good features to a junk rig but sailing to windward is not one of them. If this boat is something that you can afford and will get you out on the open blue faster then it is worth taking a chance but go into the deal knowing you are taking a chance.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[Sailormann]

I knew I'd get at least one comment like this. If there is one thing I've learned from this site is that if I wait until I have "enough" money to go sailing, I'll never make it. Even if this is a mistake, it's a mistake I need to make to learn from it. As an analogy, I can have every person in the world tell me the stove is hot, but until I touch it, I don't know what hot is or why I should avoid it.

I sympathise and agree that if you wait until there's "enough" money you may be very old or dead before you get out there. BUT, in my opinion, which is only an opinion but IS what you asked for in your post, the survey is one of the best uses you can make of your money.

Here's why:

You are looking at a boat that (I assume) is priced cheaply, and has a non-standard rig. The primary reason people install junk rigs on boats is because they are cheap. So you're buying an old boat from someone who didn't have a lot of cash. Chances are, there are more than a few things that need to be fixed, some of which you will be able to see and some of which won't be apparent until you have owned and used the boat.

It is also likely that there have been modifications and repairs made on a very tight budget that were not done properly and will need to be redone.

A surveyor is trained to look at things on boats that you will miss, and can tell you what is wrong, how serious it is, and give you an idea of how much it will cost to fix it.

Let's say for argument that you are buying the boat for 5K and have another 2.5K to make repairs and live on for a little while. When you are looking at the boat you find some things that need to be fixed and you spend your repair budget fixing them. So you're heading merrily off to sea with visions of coconuts dancing in your head, then suddenly, your boat starts careening from side to side wildly in a very minor chop. You realise that your keel just fell off, and now you're really in a bad position because, had you known the keel needed to be fixed, you would have spent the money there rather than upgrading the sail/winch/head/electronics/whatever...

So, you have two options. Either you take the money that you were going to live on, and spend a huge portion of it getting someone to tow you back to shore, where you have to figure out how to haul the boat, get the keel replaced and launch again with the very little amount of cash that you have left, which ain't gonna happen so damn but it's back to work again for a year cause keels cost money, OR you grab your lifejacket, keep whatever cash you have left and swim to shore leaving your 'investment' to float off into the wild blue yonder.

It is inevitable that you are going to have to do some things and buy some stuff to get going. Get a survey so that you know if you're spending it in the right place.

[mudnut]

Apart from one thing I have learn't from this forum about putting a junk rigg on a boat,which is,"Some boats are not designed for that type of rigg".Has anybody actually thought for one moment that the PO might have done it right and did so because he liked junk riggs.

Now eveybody ought to know by now that I'm no sailor and haven't spent yrs at the dock and in debt learning from my mistakes to prove I'm right on this or that subject,but,I like junk rigged boats,they do serve a purpose and are very easy to handle.Most people beat them up like FC's.I've also heard some comment here on CF about if a boat is below a certain price then a survey is a waste of money.Thinking that the PO was a stingy bugger most likely to have not looked after the boat is a big assumtion.

If ya carn't tell when a stove is hot,ya should'nt by one,HA HA.Maybe it would be cheaper to find out whether a junk rigg is suitable for the Pearson Vangaurd from an owners site and then if it is,take along someone with good knowledge of boats to lend a hand with a self survey and buy him some appreciation for his/her help.Good luck,sorry I carn't really help out on the main Question.Mudnut.

[sluissa]

Thanks for the continued answers. I've asked for the help of a local friend with much more knowledge and experience with boats than me to help me make a decision on this.

Even if I do go through with this and get burned by it, it's not something life threatening, it'll simply be a small wound, will heal quickly and might leave a small scar. The situation is not such that I'd be ruining my life if I made a mistake in this, it would simply be an inconvenience and a lesson.

As far as junk rigs go, I've always loved the look of them. I realize there are better sailplans out there, but I see no reason to discount the junk rig as completely useless. It may not be fast, it may not always go as close to the wind as I'd like, but it will move the boat somewhere. If I wanted to get somewhere fast, I'd be looking at planes instead.

[Vasco]

The famous "Jester", (Blondie Hasler?) a folkboat which was single-handed across the Atlantic a few times had a Chinese lug rig. Colvin was a great promotoer of the junk rig. Apparently the modern Chinese lug rig makes a lot of sense to the singlehanded cruiser. If you are interested in rigs a good book is Richard Henderson's "Understanding Rigs and Rigging".
ISBN 0-87742-194-3