Large genoa on cutter: what does it mean?

[JPA Cate]

Hi, everyone,

I just re-visited this thread, and discovered that I had misquoted Tacoma Sailor, who wrote, "we never sail upwind." I apologize for rendering that as "cruisers never sail to windward." In the Tuamotus, we met a British sailor who said, "we never sail to windward...however, we frequently change destinations," and that's certainly one strategy.

Anyhow, as I said, I just came back, and had a different take on the answers based on the title of the thread.

I think the large genoa on the cutter means that the owner wanted better performance on the wind, and had a chat to the sailmaker. The large genoa was the result of that conversation. Whaddaya think?

Ann

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by snaggletooth

That beautiful Nicholson is a ketch. It happens to be a ketch that flies a staysail inside the jib. Kind of like a sloop that flies a staysail is called a "sloop" and not a "sloop-cutter". As has been pointed out here several times by other posters just adding a staysail to a sloop does not make it a cutter. It's still a sloop. Adding a staysail to a ketch does not alter the fact that the name of that rig is still a "ketch".

Not sure this is very important to anyone but me. I'm just a stickler for correct terminology.

Both "Cutter-Rigged Sloop" and "Cutter-Rigged Ketch" are standard terms that are used all the time. Nothing new in either name.

The point of language it to communicate ideas clearly. Ketch and Cutter-Rigged Ketch are different things, so have different names to communicate that difference.

[pete33458]

This has been one of the more useful threads (for me) that I've ever started. Thanks a lot everyone for a lot of great information. As I mentioned in the original post, my rationale in looking at cutters was smaller, more manageable foresails when I am single handed. From what I gather, most people flying a yankee or small jib (110 or so) believe that they are not losing much in performance in return for greater manageability, which is what I was hoping to hear. I was just confused by the fact that virtually everything I have looked at (and they are all "true cutters") has had a 130 or 140. Anyway, as I said, thanks to everyone for a lot of great input, I feel like I have a much better understanding. Best, Pete

[RainDog]

I am also getting a lot of great info from this thread. Thanks to every one. I am about to get a whole new sail wardrobe, so this is good timing.

My boat came with a 135. I really don't like it. For sure will be switching to a Yankee when I order my new sails. This seems to be the majority opinion here. Unlike many, I use my staysail almost 100% of the time in winds < 20k and have the stay permanently rigged. I do not have much trouble tacking the 135 through the slot.

I think if you want to sail in all conditions, you do need a giant sail of some sort. I already have an Asym and would like to add a drifter too at some point. I figure the drifter will be perfect for upwind work when the wind is < 12 and the yankee will be plenty in anything over 12. My current genoa is really too heavy once the wind gets 6-8 knots. I am thinking a drifter would extend my upwind sailing range down to 4-5 knot winds. The am hoping the drifter will also pack smaller than my 135.

[snaggletooth]

I'm getting this.

I understand the cutter-schooner, just never heard of one.

But, if I understand correctly a cutter that never flies a staysail and only uses a genoa is really called a "sloop-cutter"?

Or a ketch that never flies the mizzen, and there are some, is called a "sloop-ketch"?
Unless it has two headsails and doesn't fly the mizzen then it's a,,, wait,,, "cutter-sloop-ketch"?

There were some Cape Cod Catboats that flew small jibs., They were called Catboats. But what did those old guys know anyway?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Hud3

One of the nice things about a smaller, high clew headsail is that with foam or rope luff pads it retains a pretty good shape when partially furled. My prefered combo when close reaching in 45-50 kts was triple reefed main, staysail and 110% yankee rolled up to where it slightly overlapped the staysail. Some call that a "spitfire" rig.

[Cheechako]

At risk of starting another sematics diatribe.....A word of caution: A yankee is not necessarily a 110-120 genoa. Even if the Genoa is a little high cut. My personal opinion is that a 110-115% high clew (reachable from deck) is a good option. Here is what I learned were the differences: (I could be totally wrong according to your sailmaker I suppose) First the Yankee pic then the high-ish cut Genny.

[ctl411]

Originally Posted by RainDog

I am also getting a lot of great info from this thread. Thanks to every one. I am about to get a whole new sail wardrobe, so this is good timing.

My boat came with a 135. I really don't like it. For sure will be switching to a Yankee when I order my new sails. This seems to be the majority opinion here. Unlike many, I use my staysail almost 100% of the time in winds < 20k and have the stay permanently rigged. I do not have much trouble tacking the 135 through the slot.

I think if you want to sail in all conditions, you do need a giant sail of some sort. I already have an Asym and would like to add a drifter too at some point. I figure the drifter will be perfect for upwind work when the wind is < 12 and the yankee will be plenty in anything over 12. My current genoa is really too heavy once the wind gets 6-8 knots. I am thinking a drifter would extend my upwind sailing range down to 4-5 knot winds. The am hoping the drifter will also pack smaller than my 135.

That was my plan on my H37c I used to have. I had a large roach main, a battened oversized staysail and a low clew 135. For heavier air I had a stock size staysail. For lighter air, a drifter for upwind and a spinnaker for down.
The big main and staysail worked so well I would have gone to a 120% and a little higher clew sail.

[snaggletooth]

I am gettng this:
Slooch
Kloop
Sletch
Slutter

But what the heck is a "true cutter"? You guys use that term a lot. I kind of think I know but I have this friend. He calls his boat a true cutter ( well known double ender) but I have this fear that his boat is really a faux cutter. I don't want to call him on this until I have a firm understanding of the term, "true cutter".

[Cheechako]

A true cutter is defined by where the mast is. I believe it's 50% back..based on waterline?.... further aft than a sloop... which may be 40% back etc. On the cutter this allows for the proper slot between the two headsails as well as some balance issues.

[ctl411]

"True cutter" mast is aft of station 4.

[snaggletooth]

50% aft? Wow, that's a lot. Heck at 50% it's almost a mizzen.
40% aft? That way different than 50%
You guys have to help me. Can you narrow it down a bit?

"Station"? Do you mean "stanchions"? You know, I can see that. Aft of the fourth stanchion.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by snaggletooth

50% aft? Wow, that's a lot. Heck at 50% it's almost a mizzen.
40% aft? That way different than 50%
You guys have to help me. Can you narrow it down a bit?

"Station"? Do you mean "stanchions"? You know, I can see that. Aft of the fourth stanchion.

Unless its a 30ftr with only 3 stanchions...

[ctl411]

No "station" is the term. Divide a boat by 10 stations. 0 is the bow waterline 10 is aft waterline. Cutters "true cutters" are at or around station 4. If the boat has a bowsprit maybe a little more forward. The line isn't written in stone.

[ctl411]

Hey snags things slow over at SA?