Is this the diamond in the rough?

[JPA Cate]

Well, actually Ken, we purchased a new mainsail a little over two years ago, the main, and this year, a new genoa. We did this in Tasmania. Sail maker is Steve Walker, who, incidentally, is moderately well known Sydney to Hobart crew, and the sails pleased us with their quality of thought and workmanship.

Ann

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Well, actually Ken, we purchased a new mainsail a little over two years ago, the main, and this year, a new genoa. We did this in Tasmania. Sail maker is Steve Walker, who, incidentally, is moderately well known Sydney to Hobart crew, and the sails pleased us with their quality of thought and workmanship.

Ann

Excellent!

So why then the unnecessary shot from Jim suggesting "You [I] should stick to subjects in which you [I] actually have knowledge or/and experience."

Why didn't you just have your sails re-cut and sewn? Clearly, there must be a substantial performance difference as I'd suggested, or you would have chosen to go that route instead of new sails.

[Simonsays]

i'd say there's a difference in the effect of sail age on performance between a racer/cruiser and a cruiser.
of course either will be better performing with newer sails but the last % of performance to windward may not be so much important on a 46' Formosa Ketch gunkholing in Baja.
of course you can just keep on splitting hairs over the matter if you want.
have a nice weekend.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'd say, cruising around for four seasons with used sails, followed by having the jibs re-cut and sewn by North Sails, then replacing the main sail with a new (and not as expensive as most people think) sail, then being able to compare first hand between the reworked jibs and the new main sail, would actually suggest that I have some first-hand, recent "knowledge or/and experience" with the subject matter.

When was the last time you purchased a new sail and was able to make a comparison between new and old?

Four weeks ago for us.

The point, Ken, is that it is quite possible to buy used sails that are in near-new condition, sails that do not need recutting. I noted that I surely would not buy sails that were discarded due to being blown out... like yours. To me, it sounds like you have never been through the process of finding and buying a good second hand sail. There are vendors in the US (and likely other places) who maintain inventories of thousands of sails, some actually unused, others in varying degrees of "used up". My experience, now years ago, was that the vendor (Bacon) described the condition very conservatively. I was never disappointed in what I bought. My experience is why I reacted to your dismissal of used sails as totally without merit... for a low budget sailor, used sails are a quite viable option.

And fwiw, I took delivery of a nice new hydranet genoa in February, and a new hydranet main a year earlier. And of course, they performed better than their predecessors. None the less, with a bit of re-work, the old main is now in use as a delivery sail on a well known Tasmanian race boat... I tend to replace sails before they decay to the degree that you describe.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'd say, cruising around for four seasons with used sails, followed by having the jibs re-cut and sewn by North Sails, then replacing the main sail with a new (and not as expensive as most people think) sail, then being able to compare first hand between the reworked jibs and the new main sail, would actually suggest that I have some first-hand, recent "knowledge or/and experience" with the subject matter.

When was the last time you purchased a new sail and was able to make a comparison between new and old?

Four weeks ago for us.

The point, Ken, is that it is quite possible to buy used sails that are in near-new condition, sails that do not need recutting. I noted that I surely would not buy sails that were discarded due to being blown out... like yours. To me, it sounds like you have never been through the process of finding and buying a good second hand sail. There are vendors in the US (and likely other places) who maintain inventories of thousands of sails, some actually unused, others in varying degrees of "used up". My experience, now years ago, was that the vendor (Bacon) described the condition very conservatively. I was never disappointed in what I bought. My experience is why I reacted to your dismissal of used sails as totally without merit... for a low budget sailor, used sails are a quite viable option.

And fwiw, I took delivery of a nice new hydranet genoa in February, and a new hydranet main a year earlier. And of course, they performed better than their predecessors. None the less, with a bit of re-work, the old main is now in use as a delivery sail on a well known Tasmanian race boat... I tend to replace sails before they decay to the degree that you describe.

Jim

[AZ Parothead]

Originally Posted by ParadiseParrot

Why would a coastal cruiser want a Formosa anyway. Get something fun to sail with minimum wood. Good new rigging is cheap insurance.New primary sails should be top on the list.I have seen people spend 2 to 3 grand upgrading their toilets.Good rigging and sails will keep the rig up and moving for decades. Where to save money? Low use sails like storm jib , trisail ( a useless invention really), spinnaker etc can be bought used usually in like new shape from the racer set through Atlantic sails or similar. Sometimes electronics can be gotten at steep discounts but a coastal sailor only needs a basic chart plotter and a depth sounder and a good vhf radio. Have you ever seen a 35 foot weekender with 20 year old sails and 15k worth of electronics he doesnt need? I have seen many at the marina. If you dont have good sails you will motor half the time which will soon lead to lots of maintanance and engine repair ending in some half as***d "rebuild followed by a for sale sign on the boat.

Hello fellow Parrothead,

You point is well made in that any investment in improvements should speak to the structure and performance of the vessel. That said, my wife INSISTS on a working, electric toilet. Her version of first world living....

We aren't/weren't looking for a Formosa or a Petersen. This one just came across our bows. Now that I've checked it out, there's a lot I like about it though:

1. Roomy, accessible engine compartment
2. Aft Cabin, centerline with a real queen-size bed!
3. Classic lines and look
4. Wide and stable.

And some things I dont like:

5. Big climb from the dinghy to the boat
6. difficult in tight spaces without a bow thruster.


All boats are a compromise right?

[AZ Parothead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The point, Ken, is that it is quite possible to buy used sails that are in near-new condition, sails that do not need recutting. I noted that I surely would not buy sails that were discarded due to being blown out... like yours. To me, it sounds like you have never been through the process of finding and buying a good second hand sail. There are vendors in the US (and likely other places) who maintain inventories of thousands of sails, some actually unused, others in varying degrees of "used up". My experience, now years ago, was that the vendor (Bacon) described the condition very conservatively. I was never disappointed in what I bought. My experience is why I reacted to your dismissal of used sails as totally without merit... for a low budget sailor, used sails are a quite viable option.

And fwiw, I took delivery of a nice new hydranet genoa in February, and a new hydranet main a year earlier. And of course, they performed better than their predecessors. None the less, with a bit of re-work, the old main is now in use as a delivery sail on a well known Tasmanian race boat... I tend to replace sails before they decay to the degree that you describe.

Jim

Thanks for your comments Jim. I agree with your assessment. Our plan, on any old boat refit, would be to go used from Bacon sails--a reputable re-sale loft.

We don't race and an extra 1/2-1 knot from a new sail is lost on us at this point in our cruising/sailing life. The point is to slow our lives down--not speed them up!

[AZ Parothead]

Hey Everyone!

THANK YOU for all your input. Based on your feedback, we have officially decided to pass on this boat for the following reasons:

1. Had a structural glass 'expert' take a look at the structure yesterday and he pointed out that the cracking in the cabin liner shows that the boat has been "flexed" quite a bit--could have been evidence of a hard grounding improperly repaired.

2. Total rebuild of the cabin top required. He thought that the previous standing rigging was incorrectly adjusted and the mast "wobbled" too much causing the stress fractures around the base.

3. Deck--nuff said.


So not the boat for us. BUT I have learned a lot during this 2 week process.

1. I like center cockpit boats! Never really gave them a shot until spending hours on this one checking her out. They offer a lot of room below and a great cabin for a cruising couple.

2. Access to motors, electrical, hoses is paramount.

3. Glass repair is not as scary or expensive as I once thought. There's a lot you can to do to "over repair" and make the boat more structurally sound.

4. I still hate painting

5. These old Lehman/Fords are sought after for their reliability and there are several shops that will recondition or swap your core for a rebuild and a MUCH lower cost than a new motor.

6. Deck hardware (esp winches!) are very important to inspect well as replacements are EXPENSIVE

So THANKS again for all your help in making this decision. My wife and I have read this thread several times a day absorbing your comments and they've helped us immensely.

If you're interested in this project, send me a PM and I'll put you in touch with the owner.