Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-03-2014, 23:38   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,929
Re: In Mast Furling

Its not something I would have purchased but the in mast furler came standard with this boat. I have always had a standard setup with slab reefing and a big overhanging roach that I had to hand bomb across the backstay in light air. This new main is a very poor shape compared to our last boats and because most of the drive upwind is in the roach area these sails don't do that great in light air.
That said, it is a very easy system to operate, my wife loves it and we are after all cruising and not racing so I've decided to love this bastard child even though I bad mouthed them for years. My wife says its just like making a Kleenex as easy to put back as it was to take it out.
__________________

__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 07:07   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: In Mast Furling

[QUOTE=Dockhead;1485857]The lazy part is storage of the sail: perfect and effortless storage of the sail inside the mast - no flaking, no sail cover. QUOTE]

...no UV damage...
__________________

__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 08:32   #48
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: In Mast Furling

I'll refrain from addressing all the usual points this time. Just wanted to note-again-that my thirty year old Hood furler does allow you to drop the sail inside the mast even if jammed partially furled. I have to believe newer models have the same ability. You just remove a shackle in the base of the mast where the furler stay attaches to the motor. Then you pull down on the sail hard, preferably with a snatch block and winch. This pulls the whole sail down and out the mast slot, right out of the furler extrusion. Just read the manual which came with your unit, it will describe how to do this. It's really quite easy.


I think most horror stories about jams come from owners who don't realize that sail shape is critical to good furling. You can't hang onto an old blown out main and not start to experience problems. Fortunately, a furling main has MUCH less hardware, and costs about half as much as a regular main. It's like building a jib for the sailmaker, almost. So replace your main more often instead of pocketing the difference. This, to me, is yet another benefit of the system.


On sail shape for furlers: my sailmakers think the myth of "unlimited furling" as described by Dockhead is what contributes to poor sail shape occurring quickly in these rigs. Would a sailmaker build a reef point into a slab reefing sail without reinforcing the tack and the new "foot" created by the reef? No. Same thing happens with a furler. If you use "infinite reefing", you will be putting high loads on panels of the sail which were not designed for that. This will induce stretch and ruin your sail shape much faster. My new furling main sail has heavily reinforced "reefing points" built in to it. Basically a new luff at each furling point. This prevents stretch in the sail. The only difference in operation is that you furl to the black patches sewn to the sail and stop there, instead of just anywhere. Very nice, results in a much longer lasting furling main.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 12:34   #49
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Beach, CA
Boat: Tayana Vancouver 42
Posts: 1,854
Re: In Mast Furling

Anyone have a good experience with behind the mast furling?

Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk
__________________
Tayana42 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2014, 15:08   #50
nes
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego, Ca
Boat: Hunter 326
Posts: 151
Re: In Mast Furling

I had a 32 foot Hunter, with in mast furling. Sailed it in Southern California, and then along the intercoastal water way from Corpus Christi Texas to Tampa, Fl. I have also sailed on a friends 34 foot Hunter with lazy jacks and a full batten main.

Biggest difference between the two, is that I could have my sails up in about a quarter of the time it took to get around the lazy jack's and get the main up.
Advantage Roller Furling

As for reefing, his sail had two reef's with lines that came into the cockpit, which would allow reefing from the cockpit, what a pain. Between those two lines, and the lazy jacks, it typically took three of us to get the sails up, and then down again. Advantage Roller Furling.

As for speed, whatever advantage I had in speed getting the sails up and down, was long gone in about the first 15 minutes of sailing as he would leave me in the "dust". The fully battened main, and the full roach sail, actually gave him enough speed/power to sail circles around me (he actually did this on a trip from Oceanside to Catalina, while I was trying to make as much speed as possible).
Advantage fully battened main, full roach sail.

Jams, I had a couple of jams with the roller furling, took some learning on my part as to how to use it, but we had just as many jams (no actually more) getting around the lazy jacks and the two reef points in his sails.
Advantage: Tie, both have good and bad points.

The bottom line, when synchronizing gears were first added to manual transmissions there were some who saw it as the end of an era, and not in a good way. It allowed just about anyone to drive a car, the same when automatic transmissions came along. Yes, there are problems with roller furling, and there are problems with the old fashioned sails that stack on the boom. I for one think the link in the original post was an OPINION of one person, and is no more valid than the rest of the OPINIONS that have followed in this thread.

The OP said that there was no way he would have roller furling, that is fine, he should not have it. However, if you really think that the right answer is to use the roller furling mast and change it accept a regular sail, I have to ask, "What are you nuts?" If you do that it might "work", but it will never be as good as a properly designed for the purpose mast. You won't know when to expect it to fail, and since it will require modifications to support the track attached to the mast (as opposed to the roller inside), it will have significant modifications (read flaws) added to the mast. I believe that what you will have when you are done is neither a fish nor a foul, but some bastard design that I, would never buy. (Again, another opinion).

If you don't want the roller furling, because you are concerned with jamming, then change the mast, or you should be concerned with the mast failing instead.

If you don't want the roller furling for the performance aspect, then change the mast, as you will have less weight at the top of the mast, and a properly designed mast for the task.

Bottom line, in my OPINION, change the mast, or learn to love the roller furling.
__________________
nes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 04:21   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,929
Re: In Mast Furling

Tayana42
You asked about behind the mast main sail furlers. I have used these while sailing on friends boats and they work exactly the same as a jib furler however they do give up a lot of drive to windward. Most often these furlers are connected top and bottom without any support in the luff and the sail bends off to windward and it really effects your pointing. They are fine for reaching and running and because they are not in the mast they don't have the jamming problems caused by a loose furl. These setups are best used in motor sailors or boats that are not expected to sail to windward very well. There is one exception and that was Profurl who made a behind mast furler with floating/articulating collars that supported the luff every 6 or 8 feet and it did indeed work however you had to be more careful furling it as a loose furl could get hung up in a collars.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 06:29   #52
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
I'll refrain from addressing all the usual points this time. Just wanted to note-again-that my thirty year old Hood furler does allow you to drop the sail inside the mast even if jammed partially furled. I have to believe newer models have the same ability. You just remove a shackle in the base of the mast where the furler stay attaches to the motor. Then you pull down on the sail hard, preferably with a snatch block and winch. This pulls the whole sail down and out the mast slot, right out of the furler extrusion. Just read the manual which came with your unit, it will describe how to do this. It's really quite easy.


I think most horror stories about jams come from owners who don't realize that sail shape is critical to good furling. You can't hang onto an old blown out main and not start to experience problems. Fortunately, a furling main has MUCH less hardware, and costs about half as much as a regular main. It's like building a jib for the sailmaker, almost. So replace your main more often instead of pocketing the difference. This, to me, is yet another benefit of the system.


On sail shape for furlers: my sailmakers think the myth of "unlimited furling" as described by Dockhead is what contributes to poor sail shape occurring quickly in these rigs. Would a sailmaker build a reef point into a slab reefing sail without reinforcing the tack and the new "foot" created by the reef? No. Same thing happens with a furler. If you use "infinite reefing", you will be putting high loads on panels of the sail which were not designed for that. This will induce stretch and ruin your sail shape much faster. My new furling main sail has heavily reinforced "reefing points" built in to it. Basically a new luff at each furling point. This prevents stretch in the sail. The only difference in operation is that you furl to the black patches sewn to the sail and stop there, instead of just anywhere. Very nice, results in a much longer lasting furling main.

Negative , you are really lucky if your Hood furler allow to drop the sail from the bottom slot in case of sail jammed , most Eu production boats today use brands like Zspar and Selden , very similar in internal design, Zspar use a fake mast head and the furler come in and out by the head, even with a jammed sail, Selden the same in some models, the bottom spar section is closed , i mean no way to get the sail or furler from the bottom, no idea on furlex or Hood but with Zspar and selden you are screwed if there is a bad sail jamm.
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 09:28   #53
Registered User
 
deluxe68's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona/Rhode Island
Boat: Swan 432
Posts: 581
Re: In Mast Furling

Robert Perry is considered a god by many cruisers, did he ever spec in mast furling for one of his designs?
__________________
deluxe68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 14:30   #54
Registered User
 
DDabs's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: St. George's, Grenada
Boat: Caliber 40LRC
Posts: 1,505
Images: 16
Re: In Mast Furling

If Robert Perry jumped off a cliff......
__________________
DDabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 15:22   #55
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,352
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
That's not a failure mode that occurs

Dave
Sorry, but in my experience its the most common failure mode that occurs. Never had mine jam when completely unfurled, and not if fully furled (unless it was forced in with a jam while nearly furled)
it's a very handy system, but not for performance in my opinion. local sailing sure... maybe the benes outweigh the issues.... everything's a compromise.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 16:58   #56
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
Robert Perry is considered a god by many cruisers, did he ever spec in mast furling for one of his designs?
God? never heard of this deity.

My boat was designed by Richard Pedrick and it has Hood in-mast electric roller furling with manual crank over-ride. It winds in either CW or CCW so you can choose how the sail transits the slot onto the foil.

It is on a vessel built by the oldest yacht builder on the planet. Can't help it that Mr Perry didn't make the transition to modern sailing hardware.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 18:07   #57
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,352
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by deluxe68 View Post
Robert Perry is considered a god by many cruisers, did he ever spec in mast furling for one of his designs?
My Perry designed Passport 47 had one, did he spec it? (not all of them had it) Hard to say if he was even consulted or not. Alot of roach is lost, if you assume the balance was proper before I guess you should move the mast aft for an in mast main.. haha
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 18:08   #58
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,413
Re: In Mast Furling

It's not necessary have a furling mainsail within the mast.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 19:57   #59
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
My Perry designed Passport 47 had one, did he spec it? (not all of them had it) Hard to say if he was even consulted or not. Alot of roach is lost, if you assume the balance was proper before I guess you should move the mast aft for an in mast main.. haha


Everybody knows you just make the mast a bit taller to compensate for lost roach. My 79' air clearance is 9' more than the standard rig. That compensates for a lot of roach, and puts sail area up high where it gets more wind in light air. The fact is that a properly set up in mast system is no slower than any other-it just doesn't point quite as well. Roach has more to do with acceleration and pointing ability than speed.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2014, 22:43   #60
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: In Mast Furling

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
It's not necessary have a furling mainsail within the mast.

Dang rabbit Mark u are always showing off that great boat of yours.
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
furling, mast

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Attaching a Removable Inner Forestay to the Mast Weyalan Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 32 21-12-2013 07:05
Stepping O'day 17 Daysailer Mast Markjensen Monohull Sailboats 3 04-11-2012 19:14
Mast furling slot Pinched at spreaders ctsbillc Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 11 21-12-2011 20:05
Mast Came Down, Must Repair Acedude Construction, Maintenance & Refit 7 30-08-2011 14:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.