Excuse me sir, don‘t wanna lowball but...

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If most people behave in a certain way that, by definition, is "normal."

Humans behave in all sorts of irrational ways. From our inability to see certain spacial realities (often called visual illusions) to our predictably irrational behaviour around social and economic interactions, homo sapien behaviour is fascinatingly irrational much of the time.

I encourage you to explore the vast and growing literature on the subject. You may be sueprised (or dismayed) at how irrational we are as a species.

Perhaps we are using different definitions of "normalcy". I equate normalcy with rationality mostly and not dependent on popularity of certain behavior at any given point of time or place. Majority does not automatically make for "normal". An insane asylum full of insane people does not make them normal just because they are a solid majority there.

[john61ct]

Nope, norms are what is commonly done, acceptable to most.

Extreme rationality, even common sense are the exception, being irrational is normal.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Nope, norms are what is commonly done, acceptable to most.

Extreme rationality, even common sense are the exception, being irrational is normal.

Why then boat owners are in the minority in the general population?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Perhaps we are using different definitions of "normalcy". I equate normalcy with rationality mostly and not dependent on popularity of certain behavior at any given point of time or place. Majority does not automatically make for "normal". An insane asylum full of insane people does not make them normal just because they are a solid majority there.

Then, by your definition, most humans are not “normal.” That’s not very rational .

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

This.



Shop for boats you can afford.

Which assumes every boat listed is priced right, which was the point of this thread on the first place.. if my hunch was right or not, that a lot of boats on yachtworld etc are priced with some generous padding on top to account for low balling. Not „how to lowball people just cause“

[Hoodsail]

When selling my last boat I was somewhat taken aback when "potential sellers" would negotiate with me over the phone or internet before even seeing the boat. As my listing aged over months, I gradually reduced my price from being one listed in the top 1/3 to being one of the least expensive. Urgency increased as my search for its replacement heated up..Ultimately my 1984 Catalina 27 sold for $5000, approximately 6 months after 1st listed, down from $8500 or a 41% drop in price. During the 1st month it was listed I had a few offers of $4500-5000 and turned them down flat! Ah for 20-20 hindsight...
I would suggest that you can build your own database of comparable boats so long as you narrow your search down to 1 or 2 boats...I reviewed all sailboat sites about 2x/wk for 2.5 yrs and compiled data on my 2 likely boats - equipment, noted condition, date when posted, date when price reduced - date when sold (critical) to determine approx. final selling price, altho my assumption that a brief window between dates isn't wholly representative of % of selling price. I inspected about the top 10-20% - this helped to "ground" my online assumptions. This exercise enabled me to know the market intimately, I would suggest better than a broker as I had such a focused search. Good luck in your hunt.

[BandB]

This whole concept of reasonable and low ball and fair value and such is so nebulous and lacking any meaning or definition when used in a broad sense. Market is very simply defined. It's the price a willing buyer would pay a willing seller. Now, in boats, that really differs on every boat. It does in housing as well though. People use very different logic in setting prices and there's no market norm. There is market information on sales but each sale is different and may or may not be relevant to future sales. We just sold a boat at well above "market value" or the listing prices and sale prices of other similar boats. However, the buyer had seen the boat in use, seen it's maintenance and care, and instead of a survey and normal sea trial, he had a detailed log of all it's history plus he was aboard and even allowed to take the helm some of the time as it made the trip from Apalachicola to his home in Stuart. A 200 nm trip across the Gulf in nine hours gives you a pretty good feel of what you're buying. The boat was never listed for sale. He, and perhaps more, his wife, decided that was the boat they wanted.

If I'm buying something, I'm going to offer what it's worth to me. If that offends a seller, then I'll quickly move on but I really don't worry about that.

[Jim Cate]

After reading through all the above, I'm amazed at the concern about "offending" the seller with a low offer. First, why should you be worried about his mental state? You are not marrying him, you are proposing a business deal. If not successful, you will move on. Another way of looking at it is that you, the potential buyer, should be offended if his asking price is significantly higher than apparent value... now it is his turn!

I do agree that dickering over the phone before doing even a cursory inspection is a waste of time for the seller, and an indication of lack of knowledge on the buyer's part.

Finally, one often sees ads that say something like "xxx dollars, negotiable" or "xxx dollars or best offer". The first means that there is no set price so offer what you want and I'll not be upset, and the second is rarely actually true... unless the "best offer" is damn near what the listed price is!

None of this process seems very business like, but then for sale by owner deals are kina that by definition... ya want business like, go to a broker, maybe you will get it!

Jim

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I do agree that dickering over the phone before doing even a cursory inspection is a waste of time for the seller, and an indication of lack of knowledge on the buyer's part.

If I only have $X in hand, I'm looking at 8 of my model around the country, your ask is ($X * 1.5), and a trip to visit the boat in person will be a significant expense. . .

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If I only have $X in hand, I'm looking at 8 of my model around the country, your ask is ($X * 1.5), and a trip to visit the boat in person will be a significant expense. . .

So, what are you proposing to do? Make a "low ball" offer over the phone on a vessel not seen?

Perhaps you should limit your investigations to boats that you can easily inspect!

Jim

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, what are you proposing to do? Make a "low ball" offer over the phone on a vessel not seen?

Perhaps you should limit your investigations to boats that you can easily inspect!

Jim

I would suggest some degree of feeling the seller out, something brokers do well. If a private sale, contact them and tell them where you are and that you're considering coming to look at the boat, but it's well outside the range you would pay for it even if it checks out well, so before doing so you wanted to know if there was much flexibility in the price. Again, just straight forward and honest.

We purchase small businesses regularly and face the same situation. We speak to their broker up front and discuss their situation. Sometimes we find out they've had it listed a while and no action and really do want to sell. Other times we find out they've rejected an offer that is more than we would possibly offer. Some have poured their heart and soul into the business, just like some do on their boats. Unfortunately, we can't pay for heart and soul and sentimental value. When we communicate and find out there's no way we're going to make a deal then it's good for both sides because no wasting of either's time. We've received calls from their broker two and three years later telling us things have changed. We also see some still sitting on the market four years later. Saddest one was a lady who had a clothing store and had been there every day, seven days a week, for years. She was 72 years old, a widow. It was her life and she had no desire to sell, just her daughter pushing her to do so. She had a heart attack and died. Her daughter lived in Arizona and said "sell it immediately." Our first reaction was "If she'd only sold it, maybe she'd still be alive." Our staff found out different though. She knew exactly what she was doing in pricing it where it wouldn't sell. The store, the employees, the customers were her friends and family. It was that or sit at home alone missing her husband and kids far away and disinterested. Our people said they sure wish they'd had the privilege of knowing her. We kept her name as the store name and even built a little tribute and history area on a wall. It wasn't what killed her, but it was what kept her alive.

There are a lot of boats out there listed that the spouse is pushing to sell and the boat loving spouse has no desire to and the pricing reflects it. Now, buying out of a divorce can get interesting. First, be careful the person selling has that right. However, I've seen men underprice because they were having to split 50/50 and they didn't want their wife getting much. I've also seen them move boats to the Bahamas and try to sell there with questionable legal rights, trying to keep the money from their spouse. Tread very carefully when buying from anyone involved in a divorce proceeding. Even if the boat is in their name, they may not be the sole owner or have the right to sell without agreement.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, what are you proposing to do? Make a "low ball" offer over the phone on a vessel not seen?

No, just confirm the owner is going to be willing to come down, before I invest in an expensive trip to come have a look at it.

Many people live in areas without any interesting boats for sale.

And for the right boat many are willing to travel quite a distance.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Then, by your definition, most humans are not “normal.” That’s not very rational .

They are not. And most just go through life undiagnosed.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Then, by your definition, most humans are not “normal.” That’s not very rational .

Wifey B: That's because he's not normal and not rational. He's human.

[wa1bda]

There are obviously many factors. An important one is: how long has the boat been on the market? If it has been over a year, the owner either has very unrealistic ideas of what it's worth or will be willing to consider lower offers.


Another: has the price just been reduced significantly? That may mean that they really want to unload the boat... or that, having reduced the price, they aren't interested in going much lower for awhile.


If the boat is broker-listed, ideally the broker has tried to talk some sense into the seller. Doesn't always happen, though.


Try to figure out the situation: "bought bigger boat," "health issues force sale," "moving to Colorado" are all things that scream "I'll take just about anything!"


Final thought: boats cost money. Having a boat on the market that isn't selling is costing someone some bucks every month. (one of the reasons I like www.sailboatinglistings.com is because they show the date the add was placed. A 40' boat that has sat for a year, perhaps in the southern sun, has probably cost $4,000 to $10,000 all while depreciating.


It's a buyer's market. Good Old Sailors are trying to get rid of what they have and not many people want them...


Just my 2 cents.