Design vs Displacement ?

[PAR]

Displacement is one of the very first design criteria that a designer settles on, in the initial "design brief" stage of the project. This figure is adjusted as you work around the design spiral, but it usually doesn't go very far. It's meaningless to most folks.

My data base shows the Hughes 25 a first generation IOR, which many will cringe at, while others have fond memories of. The Hughes wasn't an extreme example of this era, but did have some of the "rule induced" issues that lead to major re-thinking of yacht design avenues, after Fastnet '79.

She can be a witch to steer in a following sea under certain conditions, but you should know, as she'll have been driven fairly hard at this point. Beam seas can cause real concern and constant helm attention is necessary, again being driven hard with the wind aft of the beam. She also drags a fairly large "hole" with her up wind, but she does so with class and not much fuss, considering.

Her mid 18's SA/D, 45% ballast ratio (light disp., reality is 35 - 36% with a half ton load), and not so pinched stern quarters, compared to others in her class, made for a popular boat. She could cross Erie, if managed well, though storms in this boat wouldn't be fun for several reasons.


My notes also show concern about rudder port leaks, V berth bulkhead delamination and tabbing separation, plus a personal note that if I owned one to install a compression post or tie rods aft of the V berth bulkhead for serious racing.

Jobi, displacement is a subjective and quite relative term. It means nothing without comparison to others of it's class. Of it's class (first generation IOR, with strains of CCA still hanging all over it) it's about middle of the road, making her a good seller in it's day and a keeper of absent minded skippers. In other words, she'll take care of you, if you take care of her, plus she'll give you plenty of warning when she's pissed about the way she's being treated. And for what it's worth, these attributes have little to do with her displacement. The sissies that wouldn't dare venture off shore, in a boat this light are old and scared, best left to their pajamas and sailing magazines.

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by daddle

In no way is that a 'light displacement boat.' Look good to me.

You're kidding yourself if you think Lake Erie or the St. Laurence are as rough as the sea. I'm sure they can hurt, but the open sea is different, mainly because the implication is one cannot hide from the weather but must deal with it for as long as it persists.

I am not an experianced sailor and I sur dont want to be disrespecfull in any way, however the gulf of st-laurence is one of the worst places known, I have been there when yonger fisshing cod with my oncles. wed go off shore 14-16h striat in an open chaloop, no need for life jackets one would rather die quick in such seas. I have been in seas not many sailors have ever been, and it scared me stif, so if you ar saying this is no comparaison to the open oceans, then I maight just forget this entir boat trip.

[PAR]

There's enough "fetch" in both Erie and the St. Lawrence Gulf that you can have some very steep sea states. Unlike what Daddle might think, there are many locations on the gulf you can't hide. Erie is well known for taking it's fair share of shipping as well. As for being worse or less so then the ocean, it really doesn't matter, force 7 winds and building is a bad hair day, no matter what body of water you're on and you going to take a beating. In Erie the sea will be steeper then typically found in the oceans, the same to a lesser degree in the gulf.

You're fortunate to have been in these types of seas Jobi. It's forced you to respect it's ability to make humans quite humble. The moment you forget this the more likely you'll get drowned from complacency.

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

so whats the deal, ?

I thought you closed on a T-24? And now you are back to asking the same questions you had asked before on this thread?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ead-43109.html

Already spent enough time with you on this one...

Good luck

this is not your consern but sins you bring it up, I think you have the right to know.
I fell in love with the thompson, she was on my minde 24-7 and I worked many weeks on her, unfortunatly I cauld not meat my payment schedul and the owner got a better offer in cash! so I lost time and money.

back to base and still need advice from you guys
sorry for the inconvinience

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by PAR

Displacement is one of the very first design criteria that a designer settles on, in the initial "design brief" stage of the project. This figure is adjusted as you work around the design spiral, but it usually doesn't go very far. It's meaningless to most folks.

My data base shows the Hughes 25 a first generation IOR, which many will cringe at, while others have fond memories of. The Hughes wasn't an extreme example of this era, but did have some of the "rule induced" issues that lead to major re-thinking of yacht design avenues, after Fastnet '79.

She can be a witch to steer in a following sea under certain conditions, but you should know, as she'll have been driven fairly hard at this point. Beam seas can cause real concern and constant helm attention is necessary, again being driven hard with the wind aft of the beam. She also drags a fairly large "hole" with her up wind, but she does so with class and not much fuss, considering.

Her mid 18's SA/D, 45% ballast ratio (light disp., reality is 35 - 36% with a half ton load), and not so pinched stern quarters, compared to others in her class, made for a popular boat. She could cross Erie, if managed well, though storms in this boat wouldn't be fun for several reasons.


My notes also show concern about rudder port leaks, V berth bulkhead delamination and tabbing separation, plus a personal note that if I owned one to install a compression post or tie rods aft of the V berth bulkhead for serious racing.

Jobi, displacement is a subjective and quite relative term. It means nothing without comparison to others of it's class. Of it's class (first generation IOR, with strains of CCA still hanging all over it) it's about middle of the road, making her a good seller in it's day and a keeper of absent minded skippers. In other words, she'll take care of you, if you take care of her, plus she'll give you plenty of warning when she's pissed about the way she's being treated. And for what it's worth, these attributes have little to do with her displacement. The sissies that wouldn't dare venture off shore, in a boat this light are old and scared, best left to their pajamas and sailing magazines.

thanks foe this informative reply, if I may ask you one question.
how can one see when looking at sailboats if its a safe open water boat?

thers so many contradictions in regards to boat atrebutions.

[daddle]

Originally Posted by S&S

One question- have you ever sailed on the Great Lakes?

Why would I want to do that? We use 30 foot waves like yours to ease launching our Opti's from the boat ramp.

[PAR]

how can one see when looking at sailboats if its a safe open water boat?

Well Jobi, simply put you can't. Most folks can't tell the difference between the first couple of IOR era design nuances, let alone if one might be more off shore suitable than another. In this instance, I have a huge data base full of literally thousands of designs. Some have historic interest, others design elements I was/am interested in, while others still are just to document and preserve for reference material. This particular yacht is one of the reference yachts and one I've made repairs and/or surveyed previously.

As far as the contradictions about attributes, I don't believe this is so. Some people like to talk for the sake of talk, while others have the experience or understanding to offer real knowledge. How do you tell the difference? The best way is to pin them down for specifics. Some may say a particular model boat "sails like crap" but when pressed about how it actually sails, can't offer the commonly presented comments made by other owners of the same model yacht.

As for the consternation in some posts on this thread, who knows, but it's unnecessary, unwelcome and self-defeating. Force 8, making 1.8 S/L under bare poles, having difficulty manning the helm and keeping up with boarding water is a bad day, regardless of which puddle you happen to be floating on that day. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous and indignant, possibly showing the true nature of their experience.

[SaltyMonkey]

You ask about design characteristics, but it's not simply design. It's how the boat was put together that contributes a great deal. Not only manufacturer consistency by year but also whatever the owners have done to the boat over time - fixing it up, modifying the rig, or sailing.

Design characteristics are also trade offs and compromises, and I think are really up in the air as a measure in looking for a boat these days. I used to think the only boats that were good to sail in open ocean were heavy displacement full keel boats and that even performance cruisers were not cut for the task. Even I am considering flat bottom racer/cruisers as a possibility for my next boat these days. Benneteau and Jeanneau have nice boats. It's become emotionally complicated.

Displacement, beyond the usual performance and safety ratios, "traditionally" has be an indicator of how much the boat can carry in terms of supplies and equipment. If you add up all the fixed materials - fiberglass weight, ballast, the interior, mechanics, rigging etc...subtract that from the displacement, it should give you some estimate on what can remain before the boat theoretically sinks. Granted, it's subjective to come close to that number, but the remainder gives some reference to how much supply could be carried for the crew. At 2000 lbs per person as a full time cruising average (which can go up from there), you might use that as an estimate that the boat could give enough ceiling to be able to carry necessary supplies where you want to go.

So, looking at your Hughes 25 as an example, if we simplify and take the displacement less ballast alone: 3500 - 1600 = 1900 lbs. Doesn't really give us much in cruising capacity if we look at that "traditionally", at least after a heavy meal.

But then, there is that Alessandro Di Benedetto thing - Alessandro Di Benedetto who just completed a non-stop sail around the world on a 6.5 metre light displacement racing boat. What can we say about this? Yes, there were modifications and special equipment for living, but the base design characteristics and purpose remained the same. So what should we call this? A high performance sailing lifeboat? What's wrong with that? Nothing...

With all the possibilities and confusing info at our disposal, for our own general purposes, I think sticking to brand names and cruising boat suggestions via lists and books helps keep focus and reduce costs. There is nothing wrong with looking at the specificatoin ratios and understanding them in depth, contrary to what people say. Just don't rely on them. My suggestion to you is to go through the lists and learn about the characteristics of these suggested designs and manufacturers. You will learn a great deal about the history and why they were chosen and something more about design trade offs and characterics "as it applies to what you want to do and how you want to sail". You cannot sail every boat in the world, so you should also back it up by reading owner testimonials. They are available online. As you look for a boat something that is not on the list but may be the same manufacturer might present to you an opportunity. You'll know how to do the research and give it a quick review.

I believe because you dont have a lot of money that your lucky break may come in something that is not on the charts or for sales local listings. Something tells me you might be scouring the marina and come across a boat that the owner doesnt have on market and hasnt been used in a long time. You'll make contact and the owner may sell it to you.

[otherthan]

thanks for this info iv learn alot from this thread.

I did see 2 good looking boats in a junkyard this week, both at $500
a cattiwaca 23 full keel and in surprisingly good condition exept for the broken mast, but I cant find anything on this boat?

the other is a pearsonal arial 22? not sure, the guy at the junkyard knows nothing about boats so the names may not be accurate, anyway the 22 is in need of bottom paint and sails, other then this no soft spots or any traces of damage.

both these boats look similar in design, exept the first one looks like its 3 times more expensive with all the teak wood and brass winches and all. these ar in my budget and would make a fun winter project without being overly expensive to restore.

I didnt find any information on either, I know they look solide and have more displacement then the hughes 25.

[SaltyMonkey]

Pearson Ariel is a nice boat. I considered it at one time for a cruiser. LOA: 25' 7" not 22.

Ballast: 2500 lb (Lead)
Displacement: 5200-5600 lb.

Not quite much in the way stowage etc but better than Hughes and its an Alberg design which is desirable.

ARIEL 26 (PEARSON) Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
Pearson Ariel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In your neck of the woods...
Pearson, Cape Dory, Bristol = nice boats
Allied, Albin come up sometimes too
Pacific Seacraft Flicka and 25's = good boats but may be a bit outside of your range.

Here is that list again.

Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom -* Good Old Boats List - choosing a* small voyaging sailboat

[barnakiel]

Light displacement (big and light boat) does not imply a boat is safe or unsafe. A well prepared light displacement boat sailed by a competent driver will be fine. An old and unprepared heavy displacement boat sailed by an ignorant will not be fine.

Both light and heavy displacement boats have their cons and pros and they are fine if they are well maintained, prepared and sailed.

Posts like this one do not contribute much to the forum ;-) but at least they try to untell some urban legends.

b.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Light displacement (big and light boat) does not imply a boat is safe or unsafe. A well prepared light displacement boat sailed by a competent driver will be fine. An old and unprepared heavy displacement boat sailed by an ignorant will not be fine.

b.

couldnt have said it better myself.. All this hub-bub about boat design and displacement dosent mean a rats if you dont have the right driver behind the wheel..
The same boat in two different hands will have different results.. You see this every weekend in "one-design" racing....... and I know this is not racing, but the same holds true in any vehicle or vessel opperated by a person............

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Light displacement (big and light boat) does not imply a boat is safe or unsafe. A well prepared light displacement boat sailed by a competent driver will be fine. An old and unprepared heavy displacement boat sailed by an ignorant will not be fine.

Both light and heavy displacement boats have their cons and pros and they are fine if they are well maintained, prepared and sailed.

Posts like this one do not contribute much to the forum ;-) but at least they try to untell some urban legends.

b.

I have to admit of all the silly theads iv posted this one hold the most valued informations, to all you guys with experience dont belittle the importance of your expertise, eventho you may have posted 100 times in a similar maner and feel you ar repeating an old song, old clasics always vehicule a strong mesage to the uninformed.
Thank you very much

[SaltyMonkey]

I think there's too much emphasis on all of it - design mathematics as well as romanticized human capability. Still, maybe its how you started sailing. If you did a lot of racing and were uncomfortable, perhaps being on a larger uncomfortable light displacement isn't such a big deal.

Well, with so many variable and complicated thoughts....in the end I'm coming to think a boat should be judged by the layout of a navigation station and where the galley sinks are placed.

[otherthan]

right now thers plenty of sailboats on the market, I could focus on one design that is proven to be seaworthy like a trito or arial, but there ar a few canadian made like norther,challenger, hughes, tanzer and others available at low price, some of these unknown to most reviews but still good boats nevertheless. id like to own one of them and sail it all over to asia and africa, not as a racer but as a partner. no need to rush in any direction, hek am 45 and never even got a speed ticket or any ticket for that matter.
no special reasons to favore canadian built boats but it would be a good feeling to sail home grown.