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Old 28-07-2004, 16:15   #1
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CSY boats

I would like to hear about CSY boats! It has been asked before. Who else would like to hear about them? I need to know what I should be looking for when I downsize, I planed to go for the Valiant 50 but there may be other choices that I should know about.
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Old 28-07-2004, 19:51   #2
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CSY Boats

I would like to hear any and all about the CSY 37': opinions, analysis, whatever anyone would care to offer. This would be a move up in size for me from a Pearson 31. I'm living ashore now, daysailing and weekending on the Chesapeake with occasional longer trips. I am considering moving aboad, and making less frequent but longer trips.until retirement. After that, sailing and living aboard somewhere!
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Old 28-07-2004, 19:52   #3
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Quote:
I need to know what I should be looking for when I downsize,
Down size and upgrade....?....

Aye more about CSY boats later, now slightly under the weather and the bunk is next..

What exactly would ya like to know?

(Got them answers, stay tuned.)
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Old 28-07-2004, 20:10   #4
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CSY

Well, how about sailing performance, and handling under power around the dock?
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Old 29-07-2004, 04:33   #5
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The big ones, the CSY 44s sail surprisingly well...Some of them have won races, to many's surprise..The deep keel models are stiff and can carry plenty of canvas in a good breeze.

The CSY 33...(Mine) does not sail all that well in light winds...Under 12 knots of wind, not much is happening unless the sea is flat calm..As happens occasionally in sheltered waters, then she glides along just fine, but so does every other sailboat.

In rough weather, she slows down immediately if pounding into the waves, starts to pitch, or porpoise...Probably due to a big fat underbody, heavy displacement and short waterline lenght...One needs to turn 30 degrees off the head-seas.

The more the wind picks up, the better the CSY 33 likes it..(Up to a point, but have not been there yet)

Sailed in a near gale, with one reef in the main and the stays'l out, she was steady as a rock with no weather helm just tracking straiht at a good clip.

Crossed the Gulfstream with her in 8 to 9 feet waves and 20 knots on the nose one time..Motor sailing with reefs in the main and up front...The boat can take it and more, but not comfortable for the crew.

So, to sum it up, poor in light winds, steady in heavy winds.

Have never sailed a 37, but perhaps it is in between the 33 and the 44?

As for maneuvering around the docks: Well they come with a really big square rudder and respond good with minimum speed.
Can almost turn in a boatlenght..Very responsive, but does not back up like a spade rudder / fin-keeled equipped boat.

Have limited experience with the bigger CSYs, but know the 33 inside and out after 5.5 years of ownership and 40 sailing trips, almost half of them to the Bahamas.
She is extremely comfortable for ONE couple...Comes with 2 double and a single "bunk", so she can "sleep 5" if needed, but then it becomes crowded, yet have done it plenty of times with good friends.

Big comfortable cockpit for the size boat..Big main cabin below and lots of storage as they did not cry to cram in an aft canbin or even a quarter berth.

Uh, what else...?
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Old 29-07-2004, 20:24   #6
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CSY man thanks for the info. Do you have a 3-blade prop?
I am curious what wind angle you were sailing in the near gale force wind? And in the hard seas where you are more comfortable at 30 degrees off the swells, does the boat pound
the waves, or does it just sort of get bogged down and hobby-horse? Are we talking about 3-4 footers, 4-5 footers, 5-6 footers when this begins to occur?
(I feel like a lawyer cross examinating someone :-) )
Now for some new questions.
I'm not sure when CSY stopped building the 33s and 37s, but the 33s and 37s on yachtworld were built 1978-79. (none are in my area and I have never been aboard one). This is ok for me, but at some point electonics need replacement, or maybe want to add electronic/electrical stuff. What is access like for maintenance and upgrades, additional electroinics, rewiring,etc. Is there room on the existing power panel or at the nav station for additional breakers/equipment (relative to the original equipment?)
Is there an inner liner?
Is the cabin access to deck hardware good or bad? Are there access ports in the liner for the hardware or do you have to make cutouts? What about acccess the stanchion base bolts from the interior?
How is access to the plumbing and seacocks?
I can't really see the chainplates in the web photos. Are they satisfactory. Anything noteworthy about them or the rigging and deck fittings in general?
What about engine acccess and stuffing box access? It looks like the 33 has access from the cockpit and lots of room. Do you know if all the CSYs have this kind of engine access? What about access to the steering gear?
Have you had to really refurbish anything, or have you just had to apply the standard elbo grease?
And finally, what are your favorite and least favorite features of the boat?
Now have one on me
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Old 30-07-2004, 03:59   #7
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Geez, that was a lot of questions...Will answer a few right now:

CSY.a were built up to about 1981 when the place went out of business...They lost something like $10K on every boat sold, good engineers, bad accountants.

No inner lining..No core in deck or hull.
Most CSYs need rewireing, or it is already done..Plenty of space on the electrical panel...Chainplates on all boats over 15 to 20 years old should be replaced....Did all 9 on my CSY 33...Pain in the arse big time..Difficult access, etc.

All seacocks are more or less accessible for operation and maintenance.
More so on the bigger boats.
One of the disadvantages of the 33s are just that, hard to get to things...Ya will get used to it, but in the beginning I was swearing and cussing with bloody knuckles..(I am a big fat guy)

CSY 33s have different engine configs..Some are under the cockpit sole with a V-drive, some under the galley zink with a straight shaft.

What I dislike most with the boat is the directional stability under power of sail...Let go the wheel and she starts to wander immediately...The keel is "modified full keel" or "extended fin keel" with a skeg hung rudder....All that makes 'em turn on a dime, but they don't track good....But ya get used to that too and learn to compensate...And learn to trim sails..

Uh, what else?
All deck hardware is easy to get to and everything have backing plates... CSY did not cut any corners with hardware or build quality...BUT the boats are getting older, and if previous owners did NOT maintain them properly, some could be in bad shape and not a bargain even if the price seems low.
Don't fall into that trap.

Uh, what else...Yes Pounding in head-seas..Yeah, it is more like hobby-horsing. The clipper bow sees to that..Also have a lot of weight in the bow and the stern, that does not help.

Every boat is a compromise. I like the one I have...Strong, stiff, good quality and extremely comfortable to live on, but not a performance sailor.....Well, that is okay, we motor most of the time around here anyway as it seems like every trip is right into the wind, and if one was to sail and tack across the Gulf stream instead of cranking up Mr. Perkins, one would still be out there doing it.
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Old 30-07-2004, 06:02   #8
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I think that CSY man has answered this question in greater detail than I could but I will throw in some background. To begin with, I would like to note that I am more familiar with the 37's than the 33's or the 42/44's.

CSY's were purpose designed and built to be charter boats. While there were individual boats sold directly to private owners, the majority went into livery. At the time that the CSY line of boats was being developed, the owner of CSY had run a successful charter business for a number of years using production boats (Chris Crafts, Gulfstars, Morgan's and Irwins). According to a conversation with him at the time, he had concluded that production boats really had a different mission in life than charter boats and that he wanted boats that were pruposefully suited to his mission. While that conversation took place somewhere around 25 years ago, his key goals for the boats seemed to have been:

Robustness: The boats needed to hold up to rough handling for a period of 5 to 7 years. These boats had very simple engineering but it was sturdy and based on the then widely accepted ideas about framing a fiberglass boat. Glass work was not especially high quality, but it was quite heavily done. Tabbing on these boats was extremely sturdy looking.

Simplicity: He did not want boats that were so complex that it required specialized skills to sail or repair.

Reasonably good performance (in a comparatively narrow range of windspeeds): The feeling was that no one would enjoy a charter on a boat that could not get out of its own way. For its day, the CSY line were pretty fast cruising boats. On the other hand these boats were designed to sail in a narrow range of windspeeds. These boats were designed to sail well in a wind range between 10 and 20 knots which was the range of wind that these boats were expected to see in the Carribean. They are not very good in light air and really are not optimized for heavier going either. These boats were optimized for reaching (based on the theory that most charterers would predominantly chose courses that were reaches and would crank the engine upwind and down) at the expense of running or beating.

Economical to build: High finish levels were not necessary but being able to sell these to people in a 'buy back' program was. They needed to be inexpensive enough that the charter operations could afford to fund a reasonable 'buy back'. These were also intended to be very low maintenance and while they were in charter they tended to receive very little maintenance.

Romantic in appearance: This was a funny thing and it is hard to explain. CSY had made a conscious decision that a part of the reason that people chartered yachts in the Caribbean was out of some kind of 'romance of sailing'. They wanted the boats to have a 'romantic character' and so the boats were designed with a bit of 'swash to their buckle' traditional look above the waterline. Cutter rigs were chosen because they saw it as 'traditional' and in fact in our conversation it was suggested that the few sloop versions of these boats were much better boats.

Lots of room below and on deck: While the layouts on these boats are a little unique and frankly a little cobled up and can be a touch claustiphobic in some layouts, they do provide a reasonable layout for a small crew. One thing that is typical of the boat that were intended for charter use is that the layouts were not designed for offshore passages. Most had no seaberths, and the galley and head(s) were hard to use underway.

Good tankage but not necessarily a lot of gear carrying capacity:
CSY had quite a few layouts for each of their boats. One thing that most of these boats had in common was pretty healthy tankage. On the other hand, they were designed as charter boats and so in their most common configurations lacked the kind of storage that one would hope for in a distance cruiser. They also did not tolerate a whole lot of additional weight without tending to roll and pitch more than a version being used as designed. This is partially the result of the storage being pretty high up in the hull and partially the result of the pinched ends required to achieve the traditional look above the waterline.

Good ventilation, good hardware, good ground tackle:

There are some anachronistic issues with these boats. For example, the early ones had a very primitive electrical system (Fused panel and non-tinned wiring) later ones were built to generally accepted marine standards. Or mounting of the chainplates at the rail which when combined with the cutter rig impedes their ability to point.

Anyway, for what it is worth, that is my take on these boats.

Jeff
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Old 30-07-2004, 06:28   #9
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Roger on all that Jeff...Interesting to hear a non-owners take on the CSYs.

Yes, some were sold to private owners, including mine and a few others I know first hand..

Some of the boats that came out of charter were indeed ridden hard and put away wet...

Others have been maintained well and therefore are aging very well.

Yes, the tankage is quite good on the CSYs ...The 44 W/O (Walk-overs) came with 400 gallons of water, some of the 33s have 115 gallons, and some 157.(Mine)

I disagree on storage however...At least in the case of the 33s:
Got tons of storage, oodles of storage..Can't imagine any boat under 35' with more room, lockers, drawers, etc.

Yup, they don't point all that well, but this is not a purist's sailing machine...In the case of my boat, more of a motor sailor, and a good one at that. (51 HP in a 33 foot sailboat)

Do you mind if I copy and paste yer notes and put up on the CSY forum...Be interesting to start a discussion on the negatives on the CSY boats, instead of as in the past, where we all blow sunshine on the boats and think they are the best since sliced bread was invented..?
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Old 30-07-2004, 06:47   #10
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Be my guest, CSY Man. As I said at the start my familiarity is mostly with the 37. (I don't think that I have even been aboard a 44 in either form.) Most of what I wrote is based on the 37 and on a conversation with the owner (or one of the owners) of CSY that took place some 25 years ago or so.

My contact with the 37 came in a number of ways but my greatest involvement with one was working with an owner who wanted to convert his to a distance cruiser. I had come up with an interior layout that eliminated one head and added a lot of storage lower and amidships in the boat. When you think about a 37 foot offshore distance cruiser, there usually isn't enough room for the luxury of a lot of 'floor space'. The CSY 37 had a large percent of its below deck area dedicated to walking surfaces. While this resulted in a reasonably good charter boat interior, it eliminated the kinds of low in the boat bulk storage that is helpful for carry lots of heavy stores low in the boat where they hurt the boat least.

Most of the CSY charter boats have been out of charter for a long time and so many if not most have had many of the slings and arrows of being in livery upgraded and repaired.

I do want to say that I thought that these were very good boats for their day and purpose.

Jeff
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Old 30-07-2004, 07:28   #11
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Yeah, the CSY 37 was an odd duckling: It came in 2 versions, the A and the B plan..The 2 head, 2 stateroom plan was obviously for charters with 2 couples and the lay-out was not opitmized for passage making for one couple.



Quote:
Most of the CSY charter boats have been out of charter for a long time and so many if not most have had many of the slings and arrows of being in livery upgraded and repaired.
True, but I have also seen some that are in dire need of a complete overhaul.....Boat owners are all different, some think of their vessel as a car, minimum service and maintenace, as long as it runs, leave it alone....

Others have a love affair and wants to keep the boat in the best shape possible, for safety and personal reasons.

I saw one CSY 44 that was completely redone, from top to bottom and back..All the bronze portholes and fittings were changed out with SS, and everything else was new or overhauled.
It looked like a million bucks and owner tried to get $275 K for it.
The market could not bear that kind of price, but I heard he got something North of $160...

Other 44s have been neglected for years and goes for $60K or less.

Same with the 33s...From mid $20s to mid 60s.

Don't know much about the 37s....I never warmed up to the look of them..Plenty of character, but......
One thing is for sure...The 37s have the biggest cockpit of any 37 foot sailboat in the universe...
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Old 30-07-2004, 07:44   #12
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This is great information, guys. I thank both of you. And CSY Man, your objectivity regarding your boat is impressive.
I will give you a rest (for now).
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Old 30-07-2004, 08:24   #13
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Quote:
your objectivity regarding your boat is impressive.
Well, it is hard to be very objective, 'cause I truly love my boat and she is exactly wha the doc ordered.

However, I have done some of the damage myself:

The boat would un-doubtly sail better if I had not loaded it down with so much gear.

I "designed" the anchor set-up, (Lots and lots of big anchors, long chains and more spare big anchors and more chain, etc)
as well as other stuff: Spares, more spares, 6 tool-boxes, fasteners, (Yeah, I know, a couple of extra bolts don't weigh much, but several hundred does)
Then the 5 radios with their antenaes, wires, etc. The solar panels with their SS 1" archs, (60' of 1" SS tubing) brackets, wires etc..The porky emergency generator. The full water tank, the full fuel tank, then the 5 spare 6 gallon jugs..The 8 cases of beer, the wine, then the food...

Uh, in other words, when I go sailing to the Bahamas, the boat is loaded down, but we can live onboard for 4 weeks without going to a store, or a marina....In comfort and safety.

The reason for all the gear and spares is not 'cause I am paranoid, but rather 'cause the remote islands in the Bahamas is really the boondocks, no support or spares or mechanicks or tug-boats for a hundred miles or more.

Feels good to be completely intependent, but since the boat is old, things does happen despite preventive maintenance, therefore the tools and all that.

Without all the stuff, she would probably sail much better, perhaps like Jeff's light-weight performance sailing machine with the cored hull and deck and all that.....But if Jeff breaks down in the islands, he can borrow tools and beer from me, got plenty of it.........

That being said:

This is a list of stuff I don't have onboard, and have no plans to get:

TV, VCR, microwave oven, radar, wind-generator, A/C, chart plotter, inverter, blender, davits, inside shower, water heater, etc.

Therefore a fairly basic boat, but slow, heavy and comfortable....Like the owner...
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Old 30-07-2004, 14:33   #14
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It sounds like they are a good boat. I don't think I have ever seen one in person. What was the largest model? Where were they built? Whan did they stop making them? And why?
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Old 30-07-2004, 15:41   #15
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Largest boat was the various CSY 44 models.

Built in Tampa, FL.

They stopped making 'em when the company went bankrubt.

Some guys bought the molds and kept on cranking out a few more hulls under the name "Antigua".

Also some empty hulls were sold and finished by owners years later...Some of them boats don't have a "proper" CSY hull ID #.

(No reflection on quality, these "home-built" CSYs may be more refined than the stock production models...After 10 years of building, they should.)

Uh, what else..?

Yeas, to sum it up, they are strong, well designed for the purpose and keep trucking along with a bunch of happy owners.
It is almost a cult following....Never met an un-happy CSY owner.
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