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Old 21-03-2005, 13:28   #16
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I have to go look. I am told it is to add support to the main mast when using the staysail. Running stays attach where staysail meets mast. Not needed if staaysail not in use. Between cutter clutter on bow and stays to set or store - seems out of date. On the subject, I don't read much positive on ketch rigs. No help down wind and no help in pointing. Jib and jigger looks nice and lets you dump the main instead of reefing, but sounds like performance goes way down. Anyway, as I said, I'll go look and ask. Capt. Lar
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Old 21-03-2005, 16:40   #17
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I would not sweat the runners.

As long as there is a reasonable place to store them when not in use they are a non issue. My last two boats have had them [one fore racing purposes the other for support when using the staysail]. You just clip them on and hand tighten when using the inner forestay.

Good luck
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Old 22-03-2005, 00:02   #18
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Lar, I concur with Jon. If it's running intermediates you were referring to, they aren't going to present a big problem for you. However, what they point to - the heavy loading seen by a staysail in heavy air, which creates the mast pumping the intermediates are supposed to oppose and therefore dampen - is one ugly little secret about cutters. The theory has it that one just works the sail plan down as the air grows heavy, with that staysail doing the heavy lifting in big winds. The theory also maintains that in lighter winds, the staysail adds sail area and therefore power. The reality is that many cutters' staysails don't live well with their genoa partner, can backwind the main, and most importantly the sail cloth of which they're made is usually too light to hold up and perform well in heavier air (or the converse, won't perform well in light air due to heavy weight). Add in the extra deck hardware you mention and it's a less persuasive rationale than we used to hear in the 80's and 90's when the cutter was more in vogue.

You mention some of the inherent weaknesses of ketch rigs; I could give you a long list. But again, we hear these things discussed in generic fashion and from a more theoretical viewpoint. But when you look at specific applications, the pro's and con's of each rig become clearer and they become far less easily ranked. After 21K NM in two ketches, I've come to appreciate them greatly for offshore use with husband/wife non-spring chicken crews in temperate climates and seasons. Why? Some of the reasons are because a low-profile sail plan is much easier to manhandle (sails smaller; also lighter when getting them to the sailmaker), adding sail area is easy (asym, furling genoa and mizzen staysail), because the bugaboo about not running dead downwind is irrelevant (you make better time for a given course sailing on a broad reach at a greater speed, and broad reaching is when a ketch's sail area is most effective), because that 'jig and jigger' has proven perfect for us when reaching in 25-30 (balanced and it keeps the boat on her feet), and because the rig has other inherent advantages (mizzen serves as an array/antenna mount vs. an arch, serves well as a platform right above the helm for reef conning, and serves well as a derrick when manhandling the dink motor).

I do wish my boat was a better sailor to windward, but most of this wish is driven by a relatively shallow keel and a wide sheeting angle, not by the split rig itself. I wish I didn't have so much standing rigging in our (aft) cockpit, which one has to work around as e.g. the bimini design. There are other laments as well, just as on any other rig. But an important personal fact is that, after we saw almost all of the Caribbean, our low profile, versatile ketch rig was one reason we felt it a reasonable goal to cross the Atlantic together, alone, on a 13M boat. My sense is that it's easy to underrate a ketch rig when discussing the kind of cruising that many middle-aged sailors aspire to.

Jack
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Old 22-03-2005, 06:11   #19
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Thanks Jack - Always best to hear from those that have already done it. I had wondered if a ketch rig without using the staysail might not be an easy solution. I wonder if a double headstay would not be more flexible than a cutter set up. That would eliminate the running stays and give me the ability to have a smaller jib still well forward. I had a bad experience with a furler on a big genoa several years ago and using roller furling to reef makes me nervous, not to mention sail shape. I am not sure that when reefing down a cutter rigged ketch you would want mizzen and staysail working together. Balance ? I would guess the staysail works best with reefed main. If I am correct, the jib and jigger set up would have been an intermediate step and all 4 sails need to be adjusted if further reefing is needed. I had a great write-up on reefing a ketch - can't find it in my reference stuff. Capt. Lar
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Old 22-03-2005, 07:23   #20
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Food for thought on the roller -- when doing non coastal off shore passages I keep a working jib #3 on the roller. In really light air I suffer some but the 3 is good till 35 knots or so. Once over that I just roll up the 3 and hoist the hank on staysail. That's good till way too much wind with a double reef and I'm needing real storm sails. I have found that rolling up a #2 [135-140%] offers no sail shape for upwind sailing and really abuses the sail as the wind builds. This also minimizes stress on the roller as your not using it as a reefing mechanism.

Of course on the bay for local cruising it's the #3 till May/June or so then #2 all summer and #3 in Oct again.

Just another way to look at sail options.
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Old 22-03-2005, 11:21   #21
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Yeah, there is a CSY 44 W/O over for sale here in Ft. Lauderdale;.

(Not listed with broker yet)

The boat is in good shape, but light on gear.
She needs an autopilot, fridge/ freezer, SSB and other cruising stuff before she is ready for extended liveabord

She has a new awlgrip paint job, new standing rigging, new RIB dink with kicker, BIG anchors and other stuff.

Good basic boat for $75 K

Pictures and complete description available.
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Old 22-03-2005, 15:04   #22
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Lar, you raise a question most of us wrestle with before sailing very far away (in miles and days, once the wx f'cast becomes worthless): what do you do about that roller furling genoa? A double headsailed or cutter-rigged ketch is one answer, and then you play with your sail choices, just as Jon has described. Of course, the dilemma is that in temperate climates boats more often struggle with having too little sail area rather than too much wind...yet who wants to be unprepared for a big blast?

You'll notice the market for higher end cruising boats moved away somewhat from the cutter to alternative rigs, e.g. the Scutter. This is in part because of the short-comings I mentioned about that conventional staysail, and these same issues are faced by a cutter-rigged ketch. The double headstay is one alternative, but of course everyone wants them both to be furlers, and so that means walking away from a seamanlike staysail arrangement (presuming you have one) while spending sizeable funds to put significant additional weight (stay, roller mechanism, sail) right out on the front of the boat. It's fair to say this too sounds like a compromise...

One alternative rarely discussed in North America is the Solent Stay, which is what I thought was at least as valid a compromise as the other choices. (Our 424 didn't come with any inner stay and I feel that is just essential offshore). This allows for a larger genoa to be used in those frequent lighter airs, and yet provides for a masthead inner jib (somewhat like a blade) when reefing is needed. It too has its issues, but it puts far less hardware on deck than the conventional staysail set-up, is cheaper to make and install, and is completely removeable, meaning you can open up the foretriangle to improve tacking ability when that seems more important than leaving the inner stay up 'just in case'.

I wrote about some of the systems we added to our boat before our Crossing that worked out well, and a solent stay was one of them. If you want to check it out, visit www.svsarah.com/Whoosh/Whoosh%20Main%20Page.htm and look in the Preparing for Europe section for Boat Modifications. We now see these all the time over here, much as one sees many conventional staysail stays in the States.

Again, good luck on the search!

Jack
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Old 23-03-2005, 18:04   #23
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Thanks for the info Jack. I printed out the article and I will see if it fits. Great web site too. Capt. Lar
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Old 24-03-2005, 08:32   #24
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OK - so far my list includes bristol 43.3 or 45.5 ($), tayana 42, CSY walk-through 44 (hard to find) , moody 425 and pearson 422. any other recommendations on aft cabin cruisers that sail and are comfortable for live aboard ?
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Old 24-03-2005, 08:39   #25
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Being prejudiced I like the Moody option....Always want to see a few more around.
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Old 24-03-2005, 11:17   #26
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thanks for the totally unbiased opinion. moody runs a little more $ than some of the others, should fall between bristol and the rest. actually the question was any other makes in addition to those listed, but i get your point. capt lar
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Old 24-03-2005, 18:53   #27
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Capt Lar

On a more practical note when I was looking my requirement was a boat that could carry the load, be really comfortable and sail really well [fast is fun]. I also wanted better construction quality.

My list included: Moody, Hallberg Rassy, Passport, Norseman 447, Nordic 44, Tayana [not full keel], Taswell,Bristol, Hylas,Camper & Nicholson, Oyster, Wauquiez especially the pilot house ones and then some way out of $$ range boats like an Able Apogee 50. The list is in no particular order just as I remembered what we looked at.

Most of the others got thrown off this list for various reasons.

Hope this helps.
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Old 24-03-2005, 23:28   #28
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Quote:
My list included: Moody, Hallberg Rassy, Passport, Norseman 447, Nordic 44, Tayana [not full keel], Taswell,Bristol, Hylas,Camper & Nicholson, Oyster, Wauquiez
Yeah, but at what price range...?

$200 to $400 K?

This thread was titled CSY 44 remember?

Good basic boats for less than $100K in most cases.
Not terribly fast, BUT terribly sturdy when the poop hits the fan.

We could all cook up expensive wish-lists, including Oyster 55s and Beowulf 87s, etc.
Ownership not likely to happen unless uncle Rockefeller dies quietly and leave ya as the main heir, harem, estate and fleet included.

In the meantime, uh..there is some old sturdy boats out there on the market..CSY 33s, 37 and 44s.
Happines is simplicity and old fashioned strenght...Let the kids race around the buoys, while the adults sip strong beer in the cockpit as the sun goes down.

As should be.
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Old 25-03-2005, 04:55   #29
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Granted my range was a little higher -- max $$ was 250K. But for that you get a different level of boat which is what the question was. Capt Lar indicated he is looking at Bristols and a Moody which are also not a CSYs.

Also on Yachtworld in about 3 minutres using 40 ft min. and 250K max I could find Moodys - 46, Oyster -24, HR - 16, Passport - 15. So there are boats available. They are all different styles, layouts etc and may or may not meet the requirement. Not for me to say. Just offering another perspective.
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Old 25-03-2005, 06:51   #30
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I did in fact set a budget of 200K. The CSY and some others like the Pearson would let me spend 75K less so I have been trying to get help identifying choices and understanding where the money goes. There is another issue and I may start a new thread to talk about timing the purchase and where to buy.
I admit asthetics are important to me, but everyone has a different view. I never knew about the Pearson 422. What one may describe as a whale, another may view as a slightly overweight swan - OK not really a swan but lots of room and a great price - I could sell myself if the beast will sail. There are, in my opinion, some boats (Bristol - Hinckley Pilot) that are overpriced when compared to others - but they hold that value, so if you want to pay, you should get out (and most of us do have to come back) without a major loss of value. As many on this site have told me, there are plenty of solid boats that will do what I plan - coastal to the caribe and maybe more. The input has really helped. I also found I had to change where some priorities fell in the list. I started with the belief that sailing performance was not really needed for my plans. Jon and others have reminded me that tacking sideways is not much fun, and sailing faster is actually, for me, important. I have placed sailing capability much higher on the list. I should have remembered all those light air days I cooked my brains or listed to the diesel. My guess is the Pearson will sail better than the CSY (oh boy - here it comes) and I now agree that a walk over is not ideal since the privacy issue will only occur occasionally. I first say Moody last year on the other coast. Just looking at them, you know they go, but they are hard to find around here. I am not sure if that makes them overpriced. Thanks to all for the input. I will check out the others listed by Jon and let you know what I find. The last storm missed us, so we might actually see spring. The brokers I am talking to say the yards are still slow. The P/V I am selling is still buried. Capt. Lar
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