Cheaper Old Boats: False Economy ?

[HobieFan]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Absolute twaddle.

Would you buy a year 2000 car? Maybe as a second hand car...

would you buy a 1985 car? NEVER!

Every year is 12 months in the most aggresivly crosive liquid available to a sailor... salt water.

Get the newer boat.

Heh. Ironically, I drive a 1989 pickup. And I bought a 1977 boat. Paid cash for both and both seem quite reliable to this point.

And doing both with cash, this leaves me better than $1800/mo in extra money (the difference in potential loan costs of both, if they were year 2000 models). That works out to about $22k per year. So far, the car has cost me less than $100/mo in average upkeep. The boat needed about $2000 right away and seems to be pretty sound otherwise... *cross fingers*.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Absolute twaddle.

Would you buy a year 2000 car? Maybe as a second hand car...

would you buy a 1985 car? NEVER!

Every year is 12 months in the most aggresivly crosive liquid available to a sailor... salt water.

Get the newer boat.

If we expand on this by asking if the 1985 car were a Bentley and the newer car a Yugo and they were the same price, doesn't that change the complexion of the question?

Mark, I think you've over simplified the discussion and that quality has to be accounted for in this equation.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

If we expand on this by asking if the 1985 car were a Bentley and the newer car a Yugo

Oh contraire! The OP said both were the same brand! "two Jeanneau models that seem fairly similar but from different "eras" that appeal to me at the moment, Sun Shine 38 (1985-89) and the Sun Odyssey 37 (2000+)"

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Mark, I think you've over simplified the discussion and that quality has to be accounted for in this equation.

Oh contraire again!

We just spent the weekend in Singapore drinking booze and sailing. Everyone else at this marina spent the weekend working on their boats.

Which would you rather be doing?



Mark

[goboatingnow]

I believe you can sail into port in any European country and pay the VAT there. The boat would then be deemed to be VAT-paid in Europe as a whole - including your own country. Current UK VAT is 15%... Full list here: European VAT Rates

Not technically correct, Boats over 7.5 metres must have the VAT paid in the "country of Destination". So you might have to convince the local authorities that that wasnt Sweden.

[gonesail]

not so much twaddle. stainless steel and bronze are not found on cars. i have seen many older boats that are in better condition than the newer ones .. but they may cost more also. look for one that has been cared for and well maintained.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Oh contraire! The OP said both were the same brand! "two Jeanneau models that seem fairly similar but from different "eras" that appeal to me at the moment, Sun Shine 38 (1985-89) and the Sun Odyssey 37 (2000+)"



Oh contraire again!

We just spent the weekend in Singapore drinking booze and sailing. Everyone else at this marina spent the weekend working on their boats.

Which would you rather be doing?



Mark

ha ha

Actually before recently resurrecting my interest in sailing, I was looking at buying as a "move home to Australia (eventually) present" a 30 year old Porsche and getting it restored and modified to look and perform like a 1973 Carrera RS. This plan was partly motivated by the fact that my current 2001 Porsche is just too much more expensive in Aus to justify buying the same whenever I return.

So with the same brand different age dilemma I have been there done that

I would certainly like brand new or at least near to new, no question about that, but at the moment I really don't know what my budget will be, come spring/summer next year. It may be a case that I have to lower my purchase price range but be able to afford an extensive refit the following winter.

Besides budgeting, I have the tax issue to figure out. If I can get away with setting up a "charter company" and keeping the boat tax free then I have room to move on price.

For the moment I want to keep my options open and explore all possibilities

[Cheechako]

My experinece would say that generally after 7 or 8 years the systems are suspect, need work or replacements, doesnt matter if the boat is 7 years old or 27 years old.. (pumps, hoses, packing gland, blocks, lines etc) The more permanent systems, (chainplates, motors, electrical) etc require close evaluation to determine status and this is where you can overlook issues easy. If it was a quality build to start with you are well ahead on an older boat, however all boats pumps, systems, chainplates etc are subject to the same deterioration..... with a quality build you get a good hell and spar. It will do you no good to buy a "cream puff" that was a cheap boat to start with. Getting one that someone else has done a lot of the rebuilding is a good idea, it's usually worth little extra money on the market... if any, but can make the boat sell easier.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Absolute twaddle.

Would you buy a year 2000 car? Maybe as a second hand car...

would you buy a 1985 car? NEVER!

Every year is 12 months in the most aggresivly crosive liquid available to a sailor... salt water.

Get the newer boat.

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Fiberglass doesn't rust and barring a severe case of blistering is probably going to stay sound indefinitely; auxillaries on sailboats generally get light use; sails are easily replaced, albeit not inexpensively. The systems you should be wary of are electrical (older boats with multiple owners usually = DC bird's nest); standing rigging (look for corrosion in stays and chainplates), engine (even with light duty, older ones can be troublesome).

In my case, I have projects, but not a project boat. It would be nice not to have to bother with all that, but the $100K or so I saved by not buying a new Tayana 37 is, as they say, non-trivial.

[HobieFan]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Oh contraire! The OP said both were the same brand! "two Jeanneau models that seem fairly similar but from different "eras" that appeal to me at the moment, Sun Shine 38 (1985-89) and the Sun Odyssey 37 (2000+)"



Oh contraire again!

We just spent the weekend in Singapore drinking booze and sailing. Everyone else at this marina spent the weekend working on their boats.

Which would you rather be doing?



Mark

It is nice that you can afford the newer boat without troubles.

Personally, for financial reasons, it was a very old boat, or no boat at all... Which makes the choice seem rather an exercise in folly.

So, personally, I'd rather be down at the marina working on my boat and knowing I get to go sailing next week, than sitting at home dreaming about the water.

THAT is the only atomic choice that I faced.

In the context of the thread, you may be closer to accurate, but when sitting here with a fixed sized wad of cash, it strikes me that a very well maintained older boat could be a much better purchase than one of the "carribean specials" that the big yards churn out by the hundreds.

*shrug*

but this is all from the perspective of someone who simply can't afford that newer boat.

[Cheechako]

"...with a quality build you get a good hell and spar. " Whoops I should have said Good Hull and spar... then again.... maybe it wasa freudian slip!!

[Weyalan]

This is definitely not a cut and dried issue (this thread is evidence enough). Speaking as somebody who has brought an older (now 25 year old) boat, and worked on it, I offer the following comments:

Buying an older boat will save you money up front, but will most likely require money spent fixing, refitting or replacing things. In ball park terms, I bought a boat for $70,000 and have spent $30,000 on it over the last 4 years. Have I got as good a boat as I would have if I had bought a $100,000 boat up front? I don't know, but what I do know is that when I bought the boat I didn't have $100k and it would probably have taken me the extra 4 years to save that extra $30k, and I have ahd 4 years of good fun in the meantime, using the boat and having a ball, and learning a lot and making the boat better.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by HobieFan

when sitting here with a fixed sized wad of cash

Yes, its tough. We all have the same problem of course (some have a higher fixed wad, but then they want a bigger or more expensive boat!).
Which ever way we can achieve our goals of getting a good boat under our bum is fine. I am not trying to denigrate other peoples situations. The result shouldn't be the boat as such, but the wonderful cruising life in store

Back on the bit about high quality old boats Vs newer production boats. We have met a delightful family on a BIG Swan thats 30 years old. He just can't keep up with the expense of the constant ongoing round the world refit and is having to sell the boat and go home to work. When he got on ours - apart from the fact his wife prefers our 18 foot smaller boat with light, ventilation and swim platform - he is cognisant that if he had bought a boat like ours he could sail on forever.

So my BS does come from looking into peoples eyes and seeing the sadness as their dreams are coming to an end. It ain't fun

Just remember a 30 year old Swan, Oyster or HR will need a TRUCK LOAD more work than a 5 year old Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau, Lagoon etc....

[Rex Delay]

It really depends on how well the boat has been maintained and upgraded over the years. Mine is circa 1980 and have yet to see a new boat that would entice me to change. An old boat, if loving maintained and upgraded has much to offer at a much lower cost. We do not yet know the life expectancy of a well maintained fibreglass boat. If you keep the water where it belongs, they can last a very long time.

[Joli]

Much of the age question is dependent on the condition and maintenance of the boat. You can find older boats that are lovingly maintained and lightly used. You can find newer boats that are beat and will need refitting. All you can do is go look at them.

Good luck,

Joli

[goboatingnow]

I have sailed HR's for example and newer beneteau's. I go with a newer bene over an older HR anytime. The fact is that for example HR's spars, engine, deck equipment is no better ( and its usually the same) as beneteau. Very little to justify an older " bluewater boat" all you could poissibly be buying is overpriced labour instead of automated production.