Bestevaer 49ST

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. .
When leaving the boat for extended periods at a marina or on the hard, it will be possible to lock the security grill closed, but leave a small air gap at the top of the plastic washboard. The aluminium doghouse roof should ensure that no rain gets in.. .

I would humbly suggesting thinking really long and hard about whether one crack (!) will be enough air circulation for the entire boat, especially in a damp climate. Principles of passive ventilation -- air won't circulate through just one opening. There need to be places, better various ones, where air can come in, and other where it can go out. If these can be aimed to suit the wind, they become much more effective. If they can protrude up into the prevailing air flow, even still more effective. Maybe I should take out a patent . . . oh wait -- dorades were invented long ago. They are a hell of a good idea.

The presumed lack of condensation does not get you out of the need for air circulation when you're off the boat.

The is the very first thing on this otherwise fantastic boat you're building, which seems to me like a really bad idea. I hope you don't mind my saying so. JMHO, of course. But I don't think it's an accident that virtually all cruising boats of any quality have dorades.

[olaf hart]

I have one of those hard dodgers on my Adams 36 Traditional, you probably recall them.

Brilliant idea on deck in bad weather, especially on night watch.

You might want to think about a sliding hatch in the center, if there is a headroom problem coming out of the main hatch.

We have one, the boats without are a PITA coming and going through the main hatch, but the Adams dodger is pretty low.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Those types of heaters can work well at anchor but I've never had one that worked while underway. The forced air diesel heaters work well underway but use lots of juice at anchor. A friend of mine solved the problem by putting both on the boat. He used the forced air to get the boat warmed up quickly and then used the drip pot heater to keep it warm.

I think that's an excellent idea, and in fact it is what was recommended in the heater article I linked earlier in the thread.

By the way, it should be noted that there are two types of Eber/Webo furnaces -- hydronic ones, and air ones. The hydronic ones are for big boats which need the heat distributed to lots of places, and for whoever heats all the time.

But the air ones are much simpler and much cheaper and easier to install. For the OP, who will not have much in the way of separate compartments, the air one would be perfect. Together with the pot furnace they were planning. But if they're not planning to go N of Gib, not much point in spending too much time thinking about heating. Would be a shame, with their ice class and all. That boat just begs to go North

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Was something like this what you had in mind for the stove:
....
Really fabulous. I wish I had space for something like that on my boat.

I love fires/flames too .
Your photo is the one on the Bestevaer Suse I think. It looked very cosy. I prefer the styling of the Reflex 2000K shown below though for the interior I have in mind. A kettle or pot can be used on this model as well. The rail next to the heater on this boat was excellent.

From user reports (including the link you gave to Morgan's Cloud's report) the Refleks heaters seem to be much more reliable and fuss free than air blow ones like Webasto. Importantly for a boat like ours relying on solar power, they consume no electricity .

I am undecided about what to use for the heat shield though. Tiles don't appeal for the style I have in mind. The black on some boats will look heavy (I am trying to keep the interior open and light). SS may be too clinical. Possibly just a black shield to cabinet height can be used if a SS flue shield is added. What do you think?

The styling of the rest of the salon will probably be white painted grooved walls and white 'beamed' ceiling, similar to several other Bestevaers. Cabinets and under settee finish will be solid timber (Shaker style), floors timber. Navy leather for the pilothouse settees and either that or navy Alcantara for the salon settees. SS and timber for galley benchtops, no overhead or tall cupboards.

It is early to be thinking of this, but my mind is of course drifting in that direction . I am a bit stuck with what to do with the heat shield though.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I love fires too .
Your photo is the one on the Bestevaer Suse I think. It looked very cosy. I prefer the styling of the Reflex 2000K shown below though for the interior I have in mind:


A kettle or pot can be used on this model as well. It will also have a rail exactly like one above.

From user reports (including the link you gave to Morgan's Cloud's report) the Refleks heaters seem to be much more reliable and fuss free than air blow ones like Webasto. I like seeing a flame too. Importantly for a boat like ours relying on solar power, they consume no electricity .

I am undecided about what to use for the heat shield though. Tiles don't appeal for the style I have in mind. The black on some boats will look heavy (I am trying to keep the interior open and light). SS may be too clinical. Possibly just a black shield to cabinet height can be used if a SS flue shield is used. What do you think?

The styling of the rest of the salon will probably be white painted grooved walls and white 'beamed' ceiling, similar to several other Bestevaers. Cabinets and under settee finish will be solid timber (Shaker style), floors timber. Navy leather for the pilothouse settees and either that or navy Alcantara for the salon settees. SS and timber for galley benchtops, no overhead or tall cupboards.

It is early to be thinking of this, but my mind is of course drifting in that direction . I am a bit stuck with what to do with the heat shield though.

SWL

Inspired by this thread, I was browsing the Besteaver site, where I found that stove.

I also saw the white painted board interior finish you are talking about -- very, very nice.

In terms of function and reliability of forced air vs drip stoves, read Robert Sailor's post, and the article linked. They both have pros and cons. The refleks is probably the right choice for you, but keep in mind that they don't circulate heat very well and they don't work very well (or at all) under way. You'll definitely want something more in cold climates, so if you don't install it now, you might think about at least making provision for later installation of some other heating source, like an Eber Air Top, for example. Besides the bus heater we were discussing.

Heat is a really, really big deal in cold climates and worth investment of some thought.


Changing the subject a bit -- I notice, browsing the BE site, that they all have TILLERS. Are you going to have tiller steering?

My first thought was what a bad idea on a big boat. Then I started to think -- well, but actually, why not? Why do you need a wheel at all if you do 99.9% of steering with the pilot anyway? It sure simplifies the cockpit layout. As to having tiller on big boats -- I recall those 100' long Dutch barges have them. Must work ok. I haven't had a boat with a tiller since I sold my 16' Chrysler dinghy when I went away to law school. I started to think how fantastic to lose all the steering cables, binnacle, all that carp. No need for an emergency tiller -- nothing to break. Started to seem like a really good idea after all. Thoughts?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Those types of heaters can work well at anchor but I've never had one that worked while underway. The forced air diesel heaters work well underway but use lots of juice at anchor. A friend of mine solved the problem by putting both on the boat. He used the forced air to get the boat warmed up quickly and then used the drip pot heater to keep it warm.

I am really hoping we won't be anywhere cold enough to need a heater underway .

I don't know if I would be game using one underway anyway, except in calm conditions, although I did find this comment about use in rough seas (discussing motor boats, not heeled over while sailing):

They are fitted in most small danish commercial fish-boats going into the North Sea and the Skagerrak summer or winter. They are known to faithfully heat the cabin no matter whats going on outside – as long as they are given diesel. I can’t think of any better recommendation. Besides – I love it when the installation brochure makes sure you understand that there will be a slight diesel-drip in 10 meter (30 feet) waves – no more than 1/2 litre in 10 hours, and there is an overflow outlet that runs into a small holding tank. I mean, if Refleks worries about the heat in 30 feet waves, it is more than enough for me…"

https://reiss.wordpress.com/equipmen...ation-of-oven/

SWL

[robert sailor]

Most serious sailers from my home port, Vancouver BC,have heat. Every boat I have owned has had a heater. It not only warms the boat but keeps it dry. The drip pots work well at anchor as long as they have proper flues and with a couple of well placed fans they get the job done. They also have a nice feel as we humans always enjoy looking at flames but they back draft like crazy with the sails up. Motoring is OK in most cases so don't compare them to fishboats as they don't use sails.

[weavis]

I have always sadly turned my back on these heaters. Whilst all the blurb says that they do not smell of diesel, my nose tells me otherwise.

Maybe things have changed in the last 3 months.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Changing the subject a bit -- I notice, browsing the BE site, that they all have TILLERS. Are you going to have tiller steering?

My first thought was what a bad idea on a big boat. Then I started to think -- well, but actually, why not? Why do you need a wheel at all if you do 99.9% of steering with the pilot anyway? It sure simplifies the cockpit layout. As to having tiller on big boats -- I recall those 100' long Dutch barges have them. Must work ok. I haven't had a boat with a tiller since I sold my 16' Chrysler dinghy when I went away to law school. I started to think how fantastic to lose all the steering cables, binnacle, all that carp. No need for an emergency tiller -- nothing to break. Started to seem like a really good idea after all. Thoughts?

Yes, we are definitely going for a tiller again.
We have one now on our 48 footer. It is a simple reliable system that all but removes the biggest nightmare of losing steering at a critical time. A tiller is also particularly good for manoeuvring in close quarters where it can be swung over rapidly if needed. In addition, the instant feedback contributes hugely to pleasure helming.

Dykstra designed his own personal yacht (the 53 footer Bestevaer II) for a tiller and most other Bestevaers have duplicated this, but K&M will fit whatever you prefer. Some boats have elected to go with a wheel (eg Katharos and Zeerover).

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Yes, we are definitely going for a tiller again.
We have one now on our 48 footer. It is a simple reliable system that all but removes the biggest nightmare of losing steering at a critical time. A tiller is also particularly good for manoeuvring in close quarters where it can be swung over rapidly if needed. In addition, the instant feedback contributes hugely to pleasure helming.

Dykstra designed his own personal yacht (the 53 footer Bestevaer II) for a tiller and most other Bestevaers have duplicated this, but K&M will fit whatever you prefer. Some boats have elected to go with a wheel (eg Katharos and Zeerover).

SWL

What a great idea. I have gotten more good boat design ideas from this thread than any other single source.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Yes, we are definitely going for a tiller again.
We have one now on our 48 footer. It is a simple reliable system that all but removes the biggest nightmare of losing steering at a critical time. A tiller is also particularly good for manoeuvring in close quarters where it can be swung over rapidly if needed. In addition, the instant feedback contributes hugely to pleasure helming.

Dykstra designed his own personal yacht (the 53 footer Bestevaer II) for a tiller and most other Bestevaers have duplicated this, but K&M will fit whatever you prefer. Some boats have elected to go with a wheel (eg Katharos and Zeerover).

SWL

ahh but if the tiller fails do you need a back up wheel? Kidding! I love tillers but for a 50 footer you need a very balanced setup.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by weavis

I have always sadly turned my back on these heaters. Whilst all the blurb says that they do not smell of diesel, my nose tells me otherwise.

Maybe things have changed in the last 3 months.

The Reflex heaters are a drip pot design which is very simple. I have never owned this particular brand but I have owned others that were made in Canada and I never had diesel smell onboard. Like everything it has to be installed correctly and operated correctly.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I am undecided about what to use for the heat shield though. Tiles don't appeal for the style I have in mind. The black on some boats will look heavy (I am trying to keep the interior open and light). SS may be too clinical. Possibly just a black shield to cabinet height can be used if a SS flue shield is added. What do you think?

Our interior was white with wood trim, and we had the reflek . . . . we did a blue patterned tile background behind the heater, the blue blended in with our cushion cover colors. I would not have liked the black in your picture. I thought it looks fine. We mounted the chimney a little further away from the bulkhead than in your picture and only brought the tile up to the top of the heater, just had white Formica behind the chimney (that bulkhead was watertight aluminum sheet, covered with fiberglass skinned cored panels with white Formica exterior), which never got too hot or discolored. We had a small fan mounted which blew across the chimney.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Our interior was white with wood trim, and we had the reflek . . . . we did a blue patterned tile background behind the heater, the blue blended in with our cushion cover colors. I would not have liked the black in your picture. I thought it looks fine. We mounted the chimney a little further away from the bulkhead than in your picture and only brought the tile up to the top of the heater, just had white Formica behind the chimney (that bulkhead was watertight aluminum sheet, covered with fiberglass skinned cored panels with white Formica exterior), which never got too hot or discolored. We had a small fan mounted which blew across the chimney.

I have had a careful look at Reflek's installation instructions and a 300 mm clearance is recommended unless a wall has protection. They do not specify though if this is for the flue as well as the heater. Also no mention of clearances required if the flue is shielded. I have queried this with the builder/architect.

By the way, I thought carefully about your suggestions regarding a lightweight insulated floor. Most of our sailing will be in warm conditions where it is better not to be insulated from water temperature, as it helps keep the boat cool. We both also just love the look of solid timber floors (and their ability to age well) and the area is not large (the pilothouse floor is already insulated from the engine bay), so the extra weight of this is a small penalty to pay for the pleasure it will give. The thick timber will be on a base for ease of removal of floor panels for bilge inspection.

The solution in cold climates (that I hope to avoid ) is simple. Laying some thick interlocked foam sheets (readily available for kids rooms, camping etc) over this small area will instantly provide insulation when required. We have more than enough storage area at the rear to store these away when not needed.

SWL

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I hope you don't mind my saying so. JMHO, of course. But I don't think it's an accident that virtually all cruising boats of any quality have dorades.

No, of course we don't mind. The idea of this thread is to get some feedback. There is a lot of collective wisdom in the forum and we appreciate all the opinions. It is better to get things right at this stage rather than have to undertake modifications later. Please keep the opinions and ideas coming.

In some of these posts we have been justifying or defending the reason behind our decisions. I hope this does not come across as inflexible or recalcitrant. The aim is simply to explain the background behind our choices. We are still considering all views.


Regarding the specific question of the dorades.

I really like your dorades I think it is at this sort of size they actually start to work well.

We only leave our boat every couple of years, but when we first bought the boat we were still working and had to leave the boat locked up in a marina for long stretches (four months) a couple of times. We block off the dorades every time we leave because of the risk of rats and insects (we have heard some horror stories). The dorades could of course be fitted with bars/fly screens, but it has never been an issue to just completely block them off, so such a modification has never been a priority. The interior is always fine. It had still smelled fresh with absolutely no trace of mould or mildew problems when we have returned. We also close off the dorades in winter for extra insulation.

I put the success of this down to aluminium construction. The thick insulation reduces any condensation. There are no leaks. I think it also helps that our bilge is bone dry all the time.

We have left the boat with our dorades blocked off in a wet/cold and a hot/dry climate without any problems, but I can imagine there will be more problems if left for a long time in a hot/humid enviroment. I also think the keel stepped mast on the new boat will not allow the bone dry bilge we have enjoyed with our current boat.

However, one of the joys of a pilothouse house is the inside helm position. Keeping the forward view reasonable with as little clutter as possible is obviously in conflict with large dorades.

Any more views?