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Old 20-07-2015, 12:21   #361
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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...
We have been thinking about the fuel system and my task for today was to draw it out in the least confusing way possible. It was a tangle of lines our initial sketches. I have attached the diagram below, as it may be of interest. Note that this is image #61 from us to the architect/builder. Pictures tell a thousand words .

SWL

On a couple of home built boats I saw a really clever, why did I not think of that, idea. I think one builder is a marine engineer and the other builder is a heavy equipment operator. Both plumbed a manual mechanical fuel pump to allow them to fill the day tank if for some reason the electric fuel pump failed. The manual pumps they used are quite common on US farms and job sites.

Building Koloa (Kama Hele): Fuel transfer system and plumbing

Does the 61 Design have a fuel counter somewhere?

Later,
Dan
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Old 20-07-2015, 12:35   #362
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I keep forgetting to mention this...

Have you considered joining the Metal Boat Society( Welcome to the Metal Boat Society ) or subscribing to the Professional Boat Builders magazine( Professional BoatBuilder magazine - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine )?

Both have archives you can buy that go back to the last century that are a treasure trove of building materials, techniques, ideas, designs, etc. The archives are not cheap but if one is building a boat it is cheap in the grand scheme of things. ProBoat has a searchable subject index that might be helpful, Subject Index - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine.

Looking in the index for fuel systems:
Quote:
fuel system: antisiphoning protection, 85:130; Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and gas engine vessels, 84:82, 85:4,130; description in owner’s manual, 27:54; EPA carbon canister proposal, 97:200; fittings/galvanic corrosion, 52:18; fuel polishing systems, 112:100, 113:4; legal requirements, 84:82; remote fuel shut-off valves, 85:14, 154:56; Vetus Splash-Stop, 85:130
There is close to 1.5 pages in the index with the word "fuel."

Metal Boat Society has an index and archive but I think they are having web site issues at the moment.

Later,
Dan
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Old 20-07-2015, 12:45   #363
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
On a couple of home built boats I saw a really clever, why did I not think of that, idea. I think one builder is a marine engineer and the other builder is a heavy equipment operator. Both plumbed a manual mechanical fuel pump to allow them to fill the day tank if for some reason the electric fuel pump failed. The manual pumps they used are quite common on US farms and job sites.

Building Koloa (Kama Hele): Fuel transfer system and plumbing

Does the 61 Design have a fuel counter somewhere?

Later,
Dan
Hi Dan
No mechanical pump, but if the electric pump fails, then the day tank can be biased and the engine will pick up fuel from either main tank directly (no pump required).

Although there is no counter (I presume you mean to see how much to put in the day tank?) K&M add a sight tube to indicate fuel level in the day tank.

We are also having a Tank Tender system for fuel, fresh water, grey and black water tank levels.

SWL
PS I am struggling to open your link, but internet is poor at the moment.
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Old 20-07-2015, 13:34   #364
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Opened it now .
By the way, if anyone is looking for a manual pump, he described the OTS model 5540-95 as "bullet proof".
Sails have a lot going for them when you read about 1600 gallons of fuel stored in six tanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
I keep forgetting to mention this...

Have you considered joining the Metal Boat Society( Welcome to the Metal Boat Society ) or subscribing to the Professional Boat Builders magazine( Professional BoatBuilder magazine - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine )?

Both have archives you can buy that go back to the last century that are a treasure trove of building materials, techniques, ideas, designs, etc. The archives are not cheap but if one is building a boat it is cheap in the grand scheme of things. ProBoat has a searchable subject index that might be helpful, Subject Index - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine.

Looking in the index for fuel systems:


There is close to 1.5 pages in the index with the word "fuel."

Metal Boat Society has an index and archive but I think they are having web site issues at the moment.

Later,
Dan
Thanks for the suggestion. We haven't done either, but will look into this.
I also have Dashew's book on my list of things to buy when we are back in Australia next.

SWL
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Old 20-07-2015, 17:57   #365
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Plans are progressing well. This may be the first boat Dykstra Naval Architects and K&M are designing via email and Skype, but they are coping with the challenge very well.

DNA have now designed an arch for the solar panel and dinghy. We think they have done an excellent job, making it look as integrated and non obtrusive as possible.

We have been thinking about the fuel system and my task for today was to draw it out in the least confusing way possible. It was a tangle of lines our initial sketches. I have attached the diagram below, as it may be of interest. Note that this is image #61 from us to the architect/builder. Pictures tell a thousand words .

SWL

Why did you not put the filters before the pumps?
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Old 20-07-2015, 18:09   #366
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Do you really need a day tank overflow to the starboard main tank?
I would think the engine return flow would always be less than the outflow from the day tank.
OTOH, if I have missed something, and you expect the flow to exceed consumption, the overflow should be able to go to either of the main tanks.
Don't ask me how I know this.
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Old 20-07-2015, 18:28   #367
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

SWL, I would strongly encourage you to extend the return lines on the fuel polishing and transfer circuit to just above the bottom of the tank.
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Old 20-07-2015, 22:24   #368
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Why did you not put the filters before the pumps?
I thought I had actually , although it doesn't make much difference.
I will have a chat with my other half, but I may need to redo that.

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Do you really need a day tank overflow to the starboard main tank?
I would think the engine return flow would always be less than the outflow from the day tank.
OTOH, if I have missed something, and you expect the flow to exceed consumption, the overflow should be able to go to either of the main tanks.
Don't ask me how I know this.
Now I would love an engine like that .
The overflow is simply if we accidentally overfill the day tank. It should never be by much, so it doesn't really matter what tank it goes into.

SWL
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Old 20-07-2015, 22:32   #369
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

So, Starboard tank is full.
You are draining from the Port tank, and overfill.
What is going to happen?
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Old 20-07-2015, 22:51   #370
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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So, Starboard tank is full.
You are draining from the Port tank, and overfill.
What is going to happen?
This could occur, but I think it is an unnecessary complication to have two return systems to the main tanks. It is easy if the starboard tank is full to simply select it the first couple of fills of the day tank.
Although an overflow between starboard and port tanks would also fix this, it is nice to keep the tanks isolated except by deliberately pumping from one to the other.

It is good to have some fresh eyes looking at this though, so thank you.
It is so easy to forget about some possibilities or just plain see what you want to see, like the order of the pump and filter (I could have sworn I had these the other way around!).

SWL
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Old 20-07-2015, 23:01   #371
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I managed to do it, but I am sure you won't.
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Old 20-07-2015, 23:26   #372
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I managed to do it, but I am sure you won't.
Painful lesson! I guess it makes you super conscious of this. Have you added a second overflow line from the day tank or joined the main tanks or just take extra care now?

We will make sure it is a fixed habit to always draw on the starboard tank first, but I suppose errors can always occur. In this case it would have to be two - overfilling the day tank to start with and also leaving the starboard tank completely full when that is where the overflow is going.

Systems like this rely on a huge amount of care with which valves are open and shut and what pumps are left on, lots of possibilities of errors.

SWL
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Old 20-07-2015, 23:29   #373
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Current boat only has one tank.

Previous one I modified so there were taps in the return line, to direct the return to the tank I was using.
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Old 21-07-2015, 01:21   #374
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Painful lesson! I guess it makes you super conscious of this. Have you added a second overflow line from the day tank or joined the main tanks or just take extra care now?

We will make sure it is a fixed habit to always draw on the starboard tank first, but I suppose errors can always occur. In this case it would have to be two - overfilling the day tank to start with and also leaving the starboard tank completely full when that is where the overflow is going.

Systems like this rely on a huge amount of care with which valves are open and shut and what pumps are left on, lots of possibilities of errors.

SWL
Systems like this always give me the willies. Its good to see how different people deal with the problem.

For me-I dont like anything that is a one way habit or flow. It would have to be that flow and return and overflow is not contingent on valves working only one way. I want the fill to the day tank from either main and the overflow to either tank by auto shutoff valves and tank level switches.

Why? I cannot stand the smell of spilled diesel. I hate being on a strange vessel and not knowing the system. My day tank would be auto fill switch off way before the top. ONE button push and it happens. A manual pump back up is a good idea. gravity fed main tanks.

Actually, I really dont like the smell of diesel. Whilst y'awl are figuring out the flow runs, I would be the guy working on extractor fans and putting a Chanel #5 smell to it.
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Old 21-07-2015, 02:32   #375
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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. . .

Systems like this rely on a huge amount of care with which valves are open and shut and what pumps are left on, lots of possibilities of errors.

SWL
My electrical system is like that, and it's a serious weak point. If you don't set it just so, you can kill the batts in a heartbeat, or lose power, or other different serious problems. I do exercise a "huge amount of care" and have not had serious problems, but they lie in wait. Should be a high priority goal of systems design to reduce the risk of operator error; certainly the necessity of a "huge amount of care" is really undesirable.

Also, what is the consequence of error? Blow out a seal and pour diesel into the bilges? Ruin a pump? Pump all the diesel fuel out of a tank vent? This also needs to be thought through, and the really disastrous consequences prevented with interlocks or safety shutoffs if at all possible.

In this case, I don't know whether there could be a different system architecture which would be less vulnerable to operator error and still be practical and economical. Worth thinking hard about I would say. If not, then you need a really clear, well-practiced, step-by-step operating procedure, with posted diagrams, and some way of warning if something is done wrong. This is more feasible in your case, with only two operators, than it would be on my boat, where lots of people come and go.

Looks to me like the main risks are:

1. Pumping against a closed valve.

2. Overfilling the day tank.

3. Overfilling a main tank from day tank overflow or transfering from the other tank.

4. Running the engine against a closed valve.


For 1, I guess the problem is to specify the pump and seals to be capable of surviving this. If not practical, then pressure switches everywhere where this is possible.

For 2, overflow into both main tanks will solve it.

For 3, I don't know. Maybe a "tank full!" switch which can sound an alarm, maybe shut off the transfer pump. Or maybe more elegant -- lock the 3 way valves together in such a way that you have to disconnect the interconnection to pump from one main tank to the other, rather than circulating within the same tank.

For 4, I guess specify everything so that this will not cause damage.
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