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Old 14-06-2015, 12:32   #226
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
LOL. Right on cue.

With time, I appreciate more and more certain qualities of cats, including (without limitation) the above-waterline salon, and especially the lack of heeling.

I never minded heeling on sailboats (I started sailing as a dinghy racer) until I got beyond week-long coastal cruises and started heading out long distances on multi-day passages. On a multi-day passage, heeling when sailing upwind, even a moderate heel of 15 degrees, just really almost spoils life on board, making normal life tasks like cooking, bathing, etc., a moderate struggle to move around the boat.

But I've chartered cats and I still want a mono. The above-waterline salon of a cat doesn't really solve the view issue because of the great width of cat salons -- the view is still not like it is from the pilothouse of a mono like SWL's and Noelex's.

That leaves heeling. Water ballast?
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Old 14-06-2015, 12:53   #227
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Canting keel is probably a better option. Quite a few years ago I was working for a boatbuilder that built water ballast tanks into a yacht specifically designed for a round Australia race. Quite a nice cruiser racer 'Zulu chief'. I always liked the design, set up for short handed sailing, fast, a decent pilot house, from the drawing board of Kel Steinman. I think the ballast tanks had pretty much the same effect as sitting a fully crewed crew on the rails. A slight improvement on performance but negligible effect on heel. The vendee globe yachts seem to have an amazing amount of control of heel with their canting keels.
I see she's for sale now and wow, built in '87, I'm showing my age
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Old 14-06-2015, 13:04   #228
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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.... The above-waterline salon of a cat doesn't really solve the view issue because of the great width of cat salons -- the view is still not like it is from the pilothouse of a mono like SWL's and Noelex's.

That leaves heeling. Water ballast?
The ever changing multimillion dollar water front views are one of the best things about living at anchor. We spend a big chunk of our time in the shaded cockpit enjoying this, but I am greedy and want it permanently .

Many of the larger Bestevaers, including Dykstra's own, have water ballast (1800 litres on each side on a 53 footer - it can be transferred from one side to the other in just 8 seconds apparently!!!).

Here is a shot of a couple of water ballast tanks incorporated in the hull of a 53' Bestevaer that was under construction when we visited the yard:

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Old 14-06-2015, 19:55   #229
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Pilothouse, dinghy storage, portholes Dashew style never a drop leakage in 20 years with zero maintenance but can look wide out over the water from inside the salon.
I can't think of a better way to store the dinghy as it can have a serious dinghy with powerful outboard and be stored or deployed very fast and easy. The trick is the hoist-arm like Chris White also loves
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Old 14-06-2015, 19:59   #230
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I forgot to mention the dorades... there's 15 of them and imo you must have them for ventilation during passage.
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Old 15-06-2015, 01:16   #231
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I'm with you on the dorades for use underway when one wants the hatches closed. And, it appears their boat will have no opening ports. SWL says they have in mind some tricks with the hatches that she and noelex have not yet divulged.

Stay tuned, they may have a really inventive solution at hand for us.

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Old 15-06-2015, 01:21   #232
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I forgot to mention the dorades... there's 15 of them and imo you must have them for ventilation during passage.
Agree.

Or some way of getting a decent volume of air through the boat with the hatches closed. Maybe there's some other way than dorades, but I don't know it. This is important not just for passages, but when no one is on board and the boat is locked up. Without air circulation, the boat will mildew.

Dorades on my boat (six large round tall chrome ones, not the little plastic ones you usually see) have guard cages on them, so they don't catch sheets or cause any problems. On the contrary, they are like granny bars and great things to hang on to when moving around deck, tying things to, etc. They don't catch sheets.
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Old 15-06-2015, 01:33   #233
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

I have had new double glazed windows installed at the house. On each a vent (closable) on the frame of the window which allows air to enter. As a test I closed all of them in the house and yes, it made a huge difference to air circulation, i.e. there wasnt any when closed. The vents are not big either just half inch by 6 inches long and slotted to prevent rain ingress.

Always a fan of dorades for circulation..
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Old 15-06-2015, 02:04   #234
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Pilothouse, dinghy storage, portholes Dashew style never a drop leakage in 20 years with zero maintenance but can look wide out over the water from inside the salon.
I can't think of a better way to store the dinghy as it can have a serious dinghy with powerful outboard and be stored or deployed very fast and easy. The trick is the hoist-arm like Chris White also loves
That's a lovely boat, full of great design features. One of my ideals, with the light ends, narrow beam, waterproof compartments, sheltered helm position, and many other things which you don't find on regular cruising boats, even high end ones, and which I would want. Another plus is that it is plastic, which I still think I would probably prefer to alu, although maybe I just don't understand alu yet.

Big minus is the dinghy storage, which is awful (just like my boat's).

However, the Bestevaer, especially with Noelex's and SWL's improvements, is progress beyond Dashew's achievements, and very much in the same vein.

I especially love the pilothouse saloon area, which is just not the same as being belowdecks regardless of what hull ports you have.

That boat is just really close to the ideal cruising boat for me, if it were just a bit bigger (I have more people on board, more often, than Noelex and SWL), and if it had a better dinghy storage solution.

I have sworn to myself that I won't have another boat with davits.
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Old 15-06-2015, 03:04   #235
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
LOL. Right on cue.

But I've chartered cats and I still want a mono. The above-waterline salon of a cat doesn't really solve the view issue because of the great width of cat salons -- the view is still not like it is from the pilothouse of a mono like SWL's and Noelex's.
Eh? Im not quite understanding this. There is an all round view from a Cat. The deck is wider so the view from a Cat encompasses that. On many Cats I can sit and get almost a 360 degree view.

Im trying hard to see this as a disadvantage especially as a 50ft Cat and a 50foot Mono are intrinsically different types of vessel. Stood in the middle of a Cat at the front windows, I can see everything and steer from there in inclement weather.

There is always this option......... Broadblue 550 helm steering.

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Old 15-06-2015, 04:01   #236
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Eh? Im not quite understanding this. There is an all round view from a Cat. The deck is wider so the view from a Cat encompasses that. On many Cats I can sit and get almost a 360 degree view.

Im trying hard to see this as a disadvantage especially as a 50ft Cat and a 50foot Mono are intrinsically different types of vessel. Stood in the middle of a Cat at the front windows, I can see everything and steer from there in inclement weather.

There is always this option......... Broadblue 550 helm steering.

I think Dockhead makes a good point. If you are in a cat saloon and sat by the window you have an awesome view, but because the saloon is often very wide the view out of the opposite window is not so good as the view you would get if you were close to the window. You are often much closer to the window in a smaller deckhouse saloon.

I am a big fan of deckhouse/raised saloons/cat saloons. A great view is really nice.

I think I would make the windows as big as I could. Also clear. If they are shaded then what's the point of the heavy tints so often used?
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Old 15-06-2015, 04:30   #237
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I think Dockhead makes a good point. If you are in a cat saloon and sat by the window you have an awesome view, but because the saloon is often very wide the view out of the opposite window is not so good as the view you would get if you were close to the window. You are often much closer to the window in a smaller deckhouse saloon.

I am a big fan of deckhouse/raised saloons/cat saloons. A great view is really nice.

I think I would make the windows as big as I could. Also clear. If they are shaded then what's the point of the heavy tints so often used?
In the salon of a large cat, your view is primarily of the inside of a wide salon, not so much of what's around the boat. it's just different. It's like a hotel room which is too deep -- you're too far away from the windows.

Same comment applies to the seating in the pilothouse of a Swan 90 I used to sail -- the boat is too wide to see over do much. You don't feel the immediacy of your surroundings.

This is a quibble, since the view, and especially light, from a cat, is much better than in my boat, which in turn is much better than in non-raised salon monos.

But my personal choice would be a narrowish mono with seating in the pilothouse just like this.


These questions have analogues with cars, and it's something I may be unusually sensitive to. I drove Porsche 911s for decades (and am just selling my last one) and one of the main things I adored about them was that you sit high and forward in them, and look out over a sharply sloping hood, so that have a panoramic view ahead -- you can actually see the road passing under the front bumper, and you feel like you are really IN your surroundings. There is no machinery blocking your view -- it's all behind you. For me, this made an immense difference in driving pleasure, compared to other cars of the time, from which you peer out over a high hood through narrow windows, sitting low in the saloon and behind all the machinery.
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Old 15-06-2015, 04:52   #238
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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I think I would make the windows as big as I could. Also clear. If they are shaded then what's the point of the heavy tints so often used?
Perhaps for eye protection from reflected UV?
Don't know about 'heavy', but some tint is recommended for that.

Fascinating thread, btw.
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Old 15-06-2015, 05:37   #239
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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Perhaps for eye protection from reflected UV?
Don't know about 'heavy', but some tint is recommended for that.

Fascinating thread, btw.
I think shading comes first. Without that big windows make the interior too hot and with shading there will be negligible UV. Apparently glass blocks the most dangerous UVA rays and some of the less damaging UVB, but you can get UVB blocking glass. Probably worth doing to minimise interior damage as well as to protect people.
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Old 15-06-2015, 07:14   #240
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Re: Bestevaer 49ST

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One little thing that has been amazing that we had put on our Boreal were wave brakes for the forward hatches. An old idea that is rarely used anymore but boy do they work wonderfully when going to weather!
One of our requirements is to have a leakproof boat. People often comment that cruising should not be like camping. Anyone who has been camping will tell you that a leaking tent is the pits. Surprisingly, with a long rough offshore passage very few boats are completely leak free.

Salt water leaks are much worse than rain when camping. If salt water drips on foam cushions the foam absorbs both the salt and the water. You can dry them out, but the salt remains. It requires a lot of freshwater and patience to get this salt out. The salt attracts moisture from the air and the cushions stays permanently damp and eventually mouldy. Yuk.

No boat building material is perfect, but one of my dislikes about fibreglass is that there are so many bolts extending through the deck (the toe rail, stanchions, all fittings etc) that it is very hard to keep the boat completely waterproof. During rough offshore sailing, these fittings are exposed to the constant force of water pressure from waves and coupled by flexing of the fibreglass, leaks become common.

On metal boats the hull deck joint, stanchions and all the fittings can be welded on, or bolted into reinforced plates that are in turnwelded to the deck. There are few deck penetrations.

A weak spot that is left even in metal boats are commercial pleasure boat hatches. Leaks can be fixed. The seals can be replaced the plastic re-bedded the O rings on the handles replaced, but it is a lot of work. It is also difficult to know if a hatch has started leaking, it is not untill you get some wave pressure that you find out. Repair offshore is not practical. The other problem with commercial hatches is the plastic crazes in the tropics when exposed to UV.

Boreal have made some inroads into reducing the risk of leaks. They install wave deflectors around the front of the hatch so that the seal is at least not subject to the very high direct water pressure when waves sweep over the deck. These small details show the boat was designed by people that actually go offshore sailing.

I cannot find a photo of the Boreal set up. I did find this photo of a Nordhavn owner who had these stainless steel wave deflectors made to solve the problem on his boat. Of course it is even better to get these details right at the time of construction.

Owner installed wave breaks around the hatches on a Nordhavn:



K&M build in aluminium not only pleasure yachts like ours, but also coast guard rescue boats. These latter boats typically have 'no nonsense' solutions to problems that occur in a tough work environment.

The hatches used on these boats are welded aluminium with glass not plastic ports. The dogs are stainless steel handles (four on each hatch) that together with the sturdy hatch frame mean the lid can be clamped down with much more force. These would look out of place on many yachts, but of course they match the finish of the rest of the Bestevaers.

We have requested these instead of standard hatches. They will be raised to reduce direct water pressure. There will be some loops welded adjacent to the hatches for attaching wind scoops, rain guards and Sunbrella covers.

It might seem silly to put so much effort into these details, but a non leaking boat is critical to comfort.

K&M have also incorporated some removable security bars on some of their hatches and these will also be used. Most boats are incredibly easy to break into and with some thought this can be easily avoided.
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