Bestevaer 49ST

[Eleuthera 2014]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Thanks for getting back. Our boat is now also 100% solar powered most of the time since we added 450w, and it seems like yours with 1000w should be enough. I've often thought of adding another 450w, but can't justify it financially with the 10kw generator already onboard.

Question: How will you produce your hot water on a daily basis? When I'm alone onboard hot water isn't an issue with solar, as I don't mind a luke warm shower, but my wife likes hers quite hot, otherwise I have to listen to complaints.... which then necessitates a generator run for an hour on days when the engine isn't run.

Hi Kenomac,

We have exactly your setup. 450W solar and 7.5 KW Onan. The Onan is used for laundry and watermaking if not possible while underway. Unlike Noelex and Sea Worthy Lass, I like some comforts. As a Canuck, I can vouch for the benefits of cold showers and hot beer... but I've been Euro based for decades and I enjoy my comforts too much now. NOELEX may find that a 50F shower is a bracing start of the day!!!

[Pyxis156]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Thanks for getting back. Our boat is now also 100% solar powered most of the time since we added 450w, and it seems like yours with 1000w should be enough. I've often thought of adding another 450w, but can't justify it financially with the 10kw generator already onboard.



Question: How will you produce your hot water on a daily basis? When I'm alone onboard hot water isn't an issue with solar, as I don't mind a luke warm shower, but my wife likes hers quite hot, otherwise I have to listen to complaints.... which then necessitates a generator run for an hour on days when the engine isn't run.

We have two large charging alternators (300A@24V total output or about 8kW) on our main engine and 540W of solar panels (and are adding another 220W shortly) but no genset on our boat. Being in a more northern climate, we have an Espar hydronic boiler that provides heat and hot water. Might installing a small hydronic unit just for heating water be a solution? Maybe not necessary if you already have a genset, but in a case like our boat or this Bestevaer that won't have one, it seems a simple fix for the hot water issue?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Question: How will you produce your hot water on a daily basis? When I'm alone onboard hot water isn't an issue with solar, as I don't mind a luke warm shower, but my wife likes hers quite hot, otherwise I have to listen to complaints.... which then necessitates a generator run for an hour on days when the engine isn't run.

We have three laundry tubs in shower. These have a grating on top that serves a seat when taking a shower, although there is also full standing headroom if you prefer. One of the tub's is reserved to act as a reservoir, or tank, for warm shower water. It has an intake at the bottom leading to a separate electric pump and shower rose.

To heat the water there are several options. In warmer climates you can simply use a dark container on deck. This is poured into the "laundry tub" and cold water is added from the tap so the temperature is perfect.

In colder weather I think we will heat most of water via the Reflex diesel heater. The heater has a fiddled rail which holds a large kettle, and once again this can simply be poured in the tub with an appropriate amount of cold. When the Reflex is not running we will heat the kettle on the gas stove or an electric kettle when there is lots of solar.

There is also a separate shower rose and pump with just cold water directly from the tank.

We have used a similar simple system for many years and it works well. The hot water can be produced in many ways, adding versatility and reliability. The water can be made exactly the right temperature. There is no water wastage while you wait for the hot water to start flowing or adjust the taps to dial in the temperature. There is no hot water tank to corrode or fail and the engine installation is simplified with fewer hoses that can potentially disable the engine. The system has no safety concern like the instant propane systems. You can have a shower with hot water anytime even when the engine has not been used for long time. This is important for us because we typically stay at each anchorage several days.

[Panope]

Noelex (and SWL), I applaud your dedication to keeping your boat simple. It is the rare event that a new, custom 49'er is commissioned without the usual level of system complexity.

While I have not been aboard continuously for more than a month, I too have found that I can live happily without a "normal" engine/boiler hot water system. A tea kettle on an Origo burner works fine.

That said, I do plan on adding a cabin heat radiator that is fed by an engine coolant loop. Did you fit one of those?

Steve

[jeffrobbins]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Vesper Vision

I have hooked this up on a temporary basis on land. We are on the water's edge so there are plenty of ships on collision course . This gives an opportunity to try the unit and this is my impression so far:

Firstly the software is brilliant. The dangerous targets are colour coded in two stages (orange and red) and made larger on the screen. In a cluttered waterway this makes it easy to see the ships that have collision potential. The software on the anchor alarm is also much better than is available on most chart plotters, enabling a sensitive alarm with no false positives to be set.

The unit connects easily to virtually any chart plotter, has an internal GPS aerial and also sends this information over wifi so the AIS or anchor alarm can be seen (and controlled) on tablets or smartphones. This is ideal for monitoring the anchor alarm by the bed. The wifi signal is independent of display on the unit so you can have the anchor alarm displayed on your smartphone while the unit displays AIS information. Or two ranges of AIS.

The other great feature is low power consumption. This is especially helpful when using the anchor alarm, as the unit will be on all night.

Drawbacks:

There are going to be newer, higher powered class B transponders released in the near future so if you can hold off purchase it may be sensible.

The Vesper screen is quite low definition with a poor viewing angle by modern standards. This helps contribute to the lower power consumption and the information can seen on the chart plotter or tablet in better definition, but much better screens are available.

The anchor alarm also displays distance to the anchor, bearing to the anchor, heading and depth. All great information, but apparent wind speed would also be useful when monitoring the anchor alarm. This should be a simple software change so perhaps Vesper can incorporate this in the future.

The AIS information is easily displayed on the chart plotter (just plug and play for NMEA20000, but the clever filtering information is not reproduced on the chart plotter (unless there is way to do this that I have not found). I can understand why, there are no NMEA sentences to transfer this information, but perhaps a way around this problem could be found in future. The filtered information is sent over wifi.

I will report more when I have installed the unit permanently. Vesper also sell a version without the screen and a version with no screen and no wifi.

Edit:

One other glitch I have noted concerns the wind speed alarm.

The wind speed alarm is useful when using the anchor watch. There is also a wind shift alarm, all great features.

However, there appears to be a software bug that when the windspeed drops to zero (but the anemometer is still connected to the NMEA network) an alarm sounds to inform that wind data has been "lost". There is no way of disabling this alarm message and sound, but leaving the wind speed alarm on. Once again this would easily be fixed with a software change, so hopefully Vesper will incorporate this into a future update.

Just came across this and wanted to reply. You are referring to the class B/SO standard and it has two salient differences. One is the transmit power output is 5W vs. 2W. This doesn't affect receive range at all but all things being equal it might provide a bit more transmit range. However we've found that in practice the antenna, cable and installation have the most effect on transmit range. The most important difference is the time between transmissions of your position. If your boat is moving less than 14 knots then it is identical to existing class B/CS. If moving >14k and <23k then it is twice as frequent although in crowded conditions it falls back to being the same. Finally, if moving >23k it is every 5 seconds and falls back to 15 secs. So, if you have a >23 knot boat (or to a lesser degree >14k) then this will make a difference. Otherwise, the transmit interval difference is meaningless.

Apparent wind speed is shown on the instruments screen. Are you wanting it on the anchor watch screen too where it now displays depth?

Filtering isn't possible with an external MFD, chart plotter, etc. A few reasons, including a regulatory requirement that transponders must output all data to the external device. But setting that aside, the most important is that if the transponder filtered the data to the plotter then there's no way for the plotter to switch filtering off/on. Even if it could it would have to switch the filter off and then wait until data arrives from each vessel as it is transmitted over time. Not so good. And similarly, switching filters back on would cause future data to be filtered but the plotter would continue to display the already received targets until they time out and they would just be old positions. However on the Vision screen itself, the filter settings can take immediate effect making targets appear/disappear whenever the settings are changed or switched on/off. That wouldn't be possible with an external display. Finally, our apps are able to do it though because they use a different and more complex API to communicate with the transponder. That's also why the apps can instantly display all the targets when they are first switched on rather than having to wait for each to appear.

And thanks for the bug report on the wind alarm. I've passed it along to our team so we can get that fixed in an update as you've noted.

Jeff

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Panope

While I have not been aboard continuously for more than a month, I too have found that I can live happily without a "normal" engine/boiler hot water system. A tea kettle on an Origo burner works fine.

That said, I do plan on adding a cabin heat radiator that is fed by an engine coolant loop. Did you fit one of those?

Thanks the recommendation, we did consider this. Dockhead has one and also recommended the same. Both his and your advice is usually spot on.

Unfortunately, the advice came too late to include this in the specifications, but with our layout I think it would be easy to fit if we find ourselves doing a lot of cold water sailing. My only reservation is that it nice to keep the engine cooling system as simple as possible for reliability, especially as we are usually not traveling to a deadline so we tend to accumulate very few engine hours making the system less useful.

We have a large engine alternator and there is also the option of a small electric heater to be used in the pilot house when the engine is running.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by jeffrobbins

Apparent wind speed is shown on the instruments screen. Are you wanting it on the anchor watch screen too where it now displays depth?

Thanks for the detailed explanation Jeff. It is good to get feedback such as this from the manufacturer.

The Vesper anchor alarm is great so I am only nitpicking, but it would be useful to be able to see wind speed on the anchor alarm page. It looks like there is room to include this on the same screen while retaining the other information such as distance and bearing to the anchor, as well as depth.

It is nice to know if the wind is picking up or dying when monitoring the anchor.

[Kenomac]

I read your KISS rational and understand why you're doing what you're doing, but why not add a 10 gallon hot water heater that works off the engine and solar? I just replaced our 14 gallon unit for only €460 euros, that had supplied piping hot water to our pressurized system for 16 years without a single problem. No heating kettles, black bags, dedicated electric pumps or mixing water.... just turn the tap and presto, hot water when you want it. The Isotemp Basic unit is relatively small and uses heat off the engine.

Which watermaker system did you decide to purchase? I'm assuming it was a Spectra like we have which works off the DC system/solar.

Regarding your Vesper anchor alarm: Before you get too excited about it, we also have a Vesper Watchmate Vision with the anchor alarm, but we prefer to use our INavx anchor alarm on the iPad which can be positioned next to me in bed providing on the spot visuals and alarm within a foot of my head.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I read your KISS rational and understand why you're doing what you're doing, but why not add a 10 gallon hot water heater that works off the engine and solar? I just replaced our 14 gallon unit for only €460 euros, that had supplied piping hot water to our pressurized system for 16 years without a single problem. No heating kettles, black bags, dedicated electric pumps or mixing water.... just turn the tap and presto, hot water when you want it. The Isotemp Basic unit is relatively small and uses heat off the engine.

Hi Ken
Showering daily is essential for me. Engine powered hot water is useless if the engine is not being run. We average less than 1.5 hours a week, which means there would be mutiny on board if I had to depend on an engine run system .

No one seems to kick up a fuss putting on a kettle to have a cuppa, yet to do so to have a shower seems to elicit a horrified response from many people. As mentioned before, the advantages are huge - shower water can be made on demand in only minutes. It is easy to make this the perfect temperature (we test this with an infrared thermometer). There is zero wastage. Multiple people can have a shower without any fear the shower will turn cold half way through.

It is not a primitive system. In my view it is a superior one. Many cruisers are not happy with their conventional hot water storage tanks, so you see various alternatives being used such as the adapted pressurised garden sprays.

Thinking outside the box is very useful cruising. There is no need to complicate the boat unnecessarily in a quest to duplicate land based systems when a simple alternative that suits us perfectly is available.

SWL

[packeteer]

I've used a bucket of warm water and a 12v shower while camping, better than gas powered ime.
I'd never thought about using that setup on a boat, but it would work really well

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Ken
Showering daily is essential for me. Engine powered hot water is useless if the engine is not being run. We average less than 1.5 hours a week, which means there would be mutiny on board if I had to depend on an engine run system .

No one seems to kick up a fuss putting on a kettle to have a cuppa, yet to do so to have a shower seems to elicit a horrified response from many people. As mentioned before, the advantages are huge - shower water can be made on demand in only minutes. It is easy to make this the perfect temperature (we test this with an infrared thermometer). There is zero wastage. Multiple people can have a shower without any fear the shower will turn cold half way through.

It is not a primitive system. In my view it is a superior one. Many cruisers are not happy with their conventional hot water storage tanks, so you see various alternatives being used such as the adapted pressurised garden sprays.

Thinking outside the box is very useful cruising. There is no need to complicate the boat unnecessarily in a quest to duplicate land based systems when a simple alternative that suits us perfectly is available.

SWL

You should consider adding a small $89 NuWave induction cooktop to the mix or an Nespresso to warm the "cuppa". We haven't used propane for over five years, because I got tired of hunting for it in new ports, walking around town with heavy bottles (much safer too). Our 450w of solar works fine to power the induction unit Nespresso and refrigeration, and we bake with a NuWave infrared oven also powered by solar. I assume you will have an inverter and ac power source.

Also, which watermaker system did you decide on? I read through the first two hundred posts but didn't find mention of it.

[weavis]

I think, given that you will be sailing in colder waters for a while, a small back boiler from the stove to the shower water receptacle would cut out the kettle trip. I have no problem with the kettle process, Ultra hot water is not a requirement for mixing to right temperature for a shower.

My suggestion is merely to make the process more streamlined and will work only when the stove is running, and I suspect it will be for several months at a time when you head north. YOu can make it a gravity fed system if you want. Put a small tank above the stove and then feed from the tank to the sink and shower...

In the UK, the older houses all had this system off the coal fire....back boiler, water rises to tank and then is to all taps and wherever else required.... double duty.

As I said, only good in cold climes but really useful.. (yes, I made something like this on a boat in the UK)

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You should consider adding a small $89 NuWave induction cooktop to the mix or an Nespresso to warm the "cuppa". We haven't used propane for over five years, because I got tired of hunting for it in new ports, walking around town with heavy bottles (much safer too). Our 450w of solar works fine to power the induction unit Nespresso and refrigeration, and we bake with a NuWave infrared oven also powered by solar.

I have taken your advice on board and with a greater solar capacity than we had previously I am planning to add an induction cooktop, kettle and microwave.

I am super keen to reduce gas usage. Unfortunately, this is really only possible to eliminate if you have a generator run set up. I recognise that, as wonderful as solar is, there are drawbacks.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Also, which watermaker system did you decide on? I read through the first two hundred posts but didn't find mention of it.

It will be a Spectra Capehorn. We previously had the smaller Spectra Ventura 150 and it was excellent. With our larger solar array we are able to run the larger capacity, giving us the option of either using more water (which makes laundry easier) or running the unit every third rather than every second day.

SWL

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

It will be a Spectra Capehorn. We previously had the smaller Spectra Ventura 150 and it was excellent. With our larger solar array we are able to run the larger capacity, giving us the option of either using more water (which makes laundry easier) or running the unit every third rather than every second day.

SWL

We run two Spectra 380c units which produce a combined 34 gallons per hour off our solar. The combined DC draw is only 12-16 amps, so with your 1000w array, it'll be easily handled on a sunny day. We found it better to use the Spectra units daily for an hour than to go every other day, by doing this, the need to flush using fresh water is eliminated. Sometimes we even go with 1/2 in the morning and a 1/2 hour in the evening to eliminate the fresh water flush cycle. Just flick the switch and presto.... 14 gallons of fresh water in 30 minutes, and so quiet, we sometimes forget the system is running.

Our biggest surprise this season was being able to use the NuWave infrared oven off the 450w solar capacity. Usually able to cook stuff up to 30 minutes without any excessive draw down on the capacity.