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Old 11-12-2014, 06:00   #256
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
...
According to my dealer, the financial problems may be on the dealer side, not the manufacturer side.
It would be difficult to understand how a manufacturer that is selling boats as pop corn and has a waiting list would be in trouble.

What you say makes sense and I believe the process is the same a bit everywhere. You pay the boat before delivery if there is a waiting list and only if the boat is already on the dealers "stand" and not sold it is possible to pay with delivery. Not a very usual situation unless it is a demo boat.

I hope everything turns well for Fleur de Mer. He should have a talk with the dealer and if he does not make a real effort to compensate him, menacing to complain to Beneteau client's service. I am quite sure this situation will not please Beneteau and the Dealer risks losing dealership.

I never saw a boat being delivered to a dealer without some of the winches. They mount lots of things on a dealership (and that's why it is very important to have a good and experienced dealer) but I never heard of winches being part of the things they mount unless is an extra one (that has to be prepared from the factory).
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Old 11-12-2014, 10:48   #257
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Re: Beneteau 38

The winch mentioned is in fact an option. Only the port side cabin top winch is stock.


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Old 11-12-2014, 10:52   #258
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Re: Beneteau 38

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A swing keel is not meant to beach the boat. It allows you to have about the same performance of a deep draft and enter ports with 1.4m of water. It allows you also a much bigger possibility to have a place on a full marina, since there is many times not occupied places for boats with a small draft.



In what regards anchoring it allows you to find places on full anchorages, places that others cannot take due to draft and when you are escaping from bad weather and high winds on an anchorage the very low draft the swing keel offers allows you to be very near the coast were the wind and sea is less strong and the protection much bigger.

Got it. I'm coming from MacGregors, which are beachable, so it seemed odd to me because I'd much rather take a hard strike on the keel rather than a rudder.

My wife has already accidentally run Luna Sea aground on a shifting sandbar in San Diego Bay, so a swing keel on the 38 would have been a nice option for us even in the deep water west coast.


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Old 11-12-2014, 11:25   #259
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Got it. I'm coming from MacGregors, which are beachable, so it seemed odd to me because I'd much rather take a hard strike on the keel rather than a rudder.

My wife has already accidentally run Luna Sea aground on a shifting sandbar in San Diego Bay, so a swing keel on the 38 would have been a nice option for us even in the deep water west coast.


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It seems I had given you a wrong information. Somebody talked about a swing keel and I thought that the Oceanis 38 had a modern swing keel but it is not the case. The one that have them already on their boats is Jeanneau, I mean swing keels with all ballast on the keel. Only that type of swing keel offer a similar performance regarding a deep draft keel.

What the oceanis has is a ballasted box and a swinging centerboard. I have heard that the performance is not bad upwind but in this case is not comparable to a deep draft version. That type of keel (contrary to the swing ballasted keel) needs a lot more ballast and the boat is heavier with it (+438kg) and that counts also a lot regarding performance.

There is some advantage because with this type of keel, with care the boat can be beachable, staying on the central box and on the two rudders, but I would not do that except on absolutely perfect conditions, without waves and on a completely flat sand bottom otherwise the boat can damage the rudders.
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Old 14-12-2014, 08:02   #260
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Re: Beneteau 38

UPDATE
When Beneteau O38 Hull 61 had been removed from the transport truck and was in the post-shipment boatyard to have her bottom prepped for the application of her first antifoul paint, I noticed a ~4"x2"x.5” deformity/indentation in the port aft section of the hull (see photos) – a location that would seem to be below the waterline. I asked the dealer about it at the time and they said that it was of little concern. Last week they told me that “the boatyard 'faired' the deformity/indentation and then applied the epoxy barrier coat and bottom paint.” Are these hull irregularities common to new Beneteau hulls? Regardless, what might cause such a depression, and is having it ‘faired’ the appropriate repair for a composite hull, and is it something I should worry about? Please advise and thank you all for the great feedback you’ve given me thus far. As I’ve mentioned, this is the first new boat I’ve ordered, so the experiences, opinions, and advice you’ve shared have been a tremendous help that I am grateful for.
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Old 14-12-2014, 09:52   #261
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by Fluer de Mer View Post
UPDATE
When Beneteau O38 Hull 61 had been removed from the transport truck and was in the post-shipment boatyard to have her bottom prepped for the application of her first antifoul paint, I noticed a ~4"x2"x.5” deformity/indentation in the port aft section of the hull (see photos) – a location that would seem to be below the waterline. I asked the dealer about it at the time and they said that it was of little concern. Last week they told me that “the boatyard 'faired' the deformity/indentation and then applied the epoxy barrier coat and bottom paint.” Are these hull irregularities common to new Beneteau hulls? Regardless, what might cause such a depression, and is having it ‘faired’ the appropriate repair for a composite hull, and is it something I should worry about? Please advise and thank you all for the great feedback you’ve given me thus far. As I’ve mentioned, this is the first new boat I’ve ordered, so the experiences, opinions, and advice you’ve shared have been a tremendous help that I am grateful for.

No,hulls dont come from the mold with imperfections, my guess the truck guys or the crane guy screw the lift operation at some point, and the fairing is awful, seriously, my opinión, make a claim that you want the hull perfect at this spot, if they refuse, sand the barrier coat until you reach gelcoat if there is any, maybe those guys fill it with bondo who know, and make a mix with gelcoat and 410 microlight from WEST,or cabosil silica hard to sand, , peanut butter consistence, spread the gelcoat until you fill the depresión a bit above from the hull contour, sand smooth and aply barrier coat or antifouling...Cheers.
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Old 14-12-2014, 09:56   #262
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Beneteau 38

Hmm, that is concerning. We will hear from others on this but my opinion is that is probably harmless. The deformation could be an artifact of the either the process that marries the liner(?) to the hull, a laminate hotspot that occurred during hull layup or a minor defect created by a post curing jig.

I was in the boat building business in Florida in the eighties and nineties, much of which used open molded layup process. During production, resin applied to laminate "cures" creating exotherm (heat) that sometimes gets more intense causing the laminate to actually lift away from the hull mold surface to a small degree, creating an imperfection in that area. Alternatively when the inner liner or bulkheads are placed, a similar situation may have occurred. In post cure operations,, the fiberglass laminate continues to cure for days after initial layup. If the hull is demolded and set improperly on a cradle, that still green laminate could be flexed and the setup with the "dent".

I don't know the lamination process Beneteau uses in Marion (open molding vs vacuum bagging) and can't confirm the assembly of hull to liner/bulkheads but in either case, this is most likely corrected via fairing before anti fouling or barrier coat is applied. If my ideas are wrong and it represents a structural defect that may open the laminate later at sea is the real question. More things you can do: from the outside, tap on it and listen to how the spot may have a different sound than the surrounding laminate. Can you access the inner hull from a floorboard I the salon or the quarter berth? Visually inspect the area to discover irregularities. Is the laminate an even color throughout or does it appear frosted or splintered? If there's a gelcoat applied on the inner hull, sand off the suspicious area to inspect. TAKE PICTURES TO DOCUMENT!

This is where a surveyor even on a new boat may be worth the investment. Along those lines, when the 38 first came out I called the plant in Marion and asked for a production process tour and they said it would be no problem, just make an appointment. If I decide on the 38 or the 35, I will definitely go to get an overview that I can put to good use in delivery and ongoing maintenance of the yacht.
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Old 14-12-2014, 10:01   #263
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Re: Beneteau 38

I dont think Beneteau miss a fault like this one, then QC suck at the plant, i dont think so....just my opinión.
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Old 14-12-2014, 10:11   #264
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Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I dont think Beneteau miss a fault like this one, then QC suck at the plant, i dont think so....just my opinión.

I do appreciate your deep experience and your first idea was my own initial reaction. But I know that on any open molded or bagged, infused laminate you will find imperfections that are only cosmetic if you inspect close enough. The structural integrity or lack thereof is the concern to be managed.

And I do agree that consistent plant QC operations are always a challenge. There may be a record of the defect in Marion production database and if so, they may be willing to share it.

But, if as you suggested the trucker or lift operator did it, that would most likely be structural and is a concern that fairing will only hide and not correct.
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Old 14-12-2014, 10:21   #265
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Re: Beneteau 38

Quite true, but this is not a finger nail size imperfection , dificult to spot at first sight, i believe the B38 is solid glass below the waterline , maybe im wromg i dont know the hull layup for this particular model, in the past they leave the hulls in the mold until they drop the grid liner, then they lift the hull to another station to drop the whole interior in units, they are well supported after they leave the mold, but jezz i dont think they miss such a BS in the hull, but not imposible, you right....
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Old 14-12-2014, 12:20   #266
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Re: Beneteau 38

I bet anything that it did not leave the Beneteau plant like that. There may be structural damage. You are having serious problems with this boat. I would send an email to the president of Beneteau USA explaining all the problems you are having. Too bad you've paid 100% before accepting the boat. It appears that your dealer may not be the best.

Beneteau service has always been great. When the 393's were built some had a poor finish coat on the interior woodwork and it would easily chip off. Beneteau sent crews all over to the boats with this problem and stripped and re-finished the woodwork.
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Old 14-12-2014, 13:13   #267
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Re: Beneteau 38

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I dont think Beneteau miss a fault like this one, then QC suck at the plant, i dont think so....just my opinión.
Now, that is shameful I would say, but I agree with you on this

No way a boat would go out of factory with a defect like that and if by any chance that happened the dealer should have told you right from the beginning. Beneteau should have a client service independent from the dealer? I would talk directly with the guys from the factory and as high as possible to know what is that "defect". I also agree with what Neil said previously regarding "fairing" that.

Document that and get the advise of a good independent surveyor for a future claim.
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Old 14-12-2014, 15:55   #268
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Re: Beneteau 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluer de Mer View Post
UPDATE
When Beneteau O38 Hull 61 had been removed from the transport truck and was in the post-shipment boatyard to have her bottom prepped for the application of her first antifoul paint, I noticed a ~4"x2"x.5” deformity/indentation in the port aft section of the hull (see photos) – a location that would seem to be below the waterline. I asked the dealer about it at the time and they said that it was of little concern. Last week they told me that “the boatyard 'faired' the deformity/indentation and then applied the epoxy barrier coat and bottom paint.” Are these hull irregularities common to new Beneteau hulls? Regardless, what might cause such a depression, and is having it ‘faired’ the appropriate repair for a composite hull, and is it something I should worry about? Please advise and thank you all for the great feedback you’ve given me thus far. As I’ve mentioned, this is the first new boat I’ve ordered, so the experiences, opinions, and advice you’ve shared have been a tremendous help that I am grateful for.
No, these kinds of hull deformities are not particularly common, but they are possible in any fiberglass layup boat.

The process used for these hulls is open mold fiberglass layup with polyester resin, which is the least expensive way to build a hull. The reason for using polyester besides low cost and medium strength is that it does not require vacuum bagging. While it is possible to vacuum bag GRP/Polyester, it will actually compress the laminate (hull thickness) by up to 30% which will decrease stiffness with no significant weight savings, with the only reason for doing it being to save resin, which is simply not important with cheap polyester. On GRP boats of this size, the last thing you want to do is decrease stiffness.

In the open mold GRP process, there are a couple of things that can cause hull deformations: exothermic heat of cure causing a bubble (incorrect resin mix), physical warpage before the set is complete (from, for example, being struck by something during layup, an object on the mold under the layup, etc.

What this imperfection is definitely not is strike or impact damage that occurred after layup. That kind of damage always causes gelcoat cracking at a minimum if its strong enough to leave any kind of deformation. Fiberglass impact damage breaks the glass or it pops back--it never warps like this after it's set.

Now, it might look like _repaired_ impact damage (i.e., something punched a hole which was then badly repaired, for example by a shipper) but the photo shows clear warping on one side that can only be caused before the hull is set.

I'm afraid this hull definitely shipped from the factory in this condition.

On the very positive side, however, it actually is cosmetic only. It must be faired smooth for hydrodynamic performance, but it will not impact hull rigidity or cause any weakness in the hull, because all the appropriate layers of fiberglass and the right amount of resin is in place.

You can confirm everything I've said here by inspecting the interior of the hull under the deck plates in this position. You will see the negative indentation on the interior side of the fiberglass. An impact, bad repair, or other cause of damage will not look anything like a "bubble" on the interior, you will be able to easily tell the difference.

Inspect the inside surface, and if it looks right, rest assured that this is merely a cosmetic blemish that is easily repairable. Otherwise my assessment is incorrect and the hull should be repaired professionally by cutting out the imperfection and re-glassing. You can perform this inspection at any time because the repair can be performed at any time, but you should do it prior to formal acceptance, because after that your dealer's responsibilities are complete and this would be only resolvable through warranty.

It's likely that many of us have these sorts of warpage issues in our hulls that were repaired before they left the factory and that we simply don't know about. You'd have to survey the hull on the inside from stem to stern to find them.
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Old 14-12-2014, 16:14   #269
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Re: Beneteau 38

Lol , i dont want to sound like a smartass, but, humm , can i say it? Grid Liner"" Lets see if they can look at the real hull inside....
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Old 14-12-2014, 16:49   #270
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Re: Beneteau 38

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
No, these kinds of hull deformities are not particularly common, but they are possible in any fiberglass layup boat.

The process used for these hulls is open mold fiberglass layup with polyester resin, which is the least expensive way to build a hull. The reason for using polyester besides low cost and medium strength is that it does not require vacuum bagging. While it is possible to vacuum bag GRP/Polyester, it will actually compress the laminate (hull thickness) by up to 30% which will decrease stiffness with no significant weight savings, with the only reason for doing it being to save resin, which is simply not important with cheap polyester. On GRP boats of this size, the last thing you want to do is decrease stiffness.

...
First time I have heard that an open mold fiberglass, besides being cheaper, is a superior building method that Vacuum bagging, in what regards stiffness, weight or anything.
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