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Old 08-01-2015, 13:19   #76
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
This implies that beauty is entirely subjective. This is not the case.

A Jaguar XKE is better looking than a Pontiac Aztec.
A pastoral landscape is better than a garbage dump.
The Mona Lisa is better than graffiti.
Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto beats the clamour of Universal 3-cylinder diesel.

These things are fundamentally true, not in the eye of the beholder.
Purposefully choosing extremes is a dodge, and even so, still subjective. I bet there are a lot of graffiti artists that don't think much of the Mona Lisa at all. Do you feel comfortable passing judgement on all art?

With boats, your argument certainly does not hold up. Lots of people worship the esthetics of the "pirate ship" type boats like Formosa's, etc, while I think they are a visual blight. I can't see the beauty in most square riggers, while others wax poetical about them. I personally like the West Wight Potter, while others think they are ugly.

Now let's move onto those AC72 catamarans. I still get a hard-on just thinking about those and will never get enough of looking at pictures of them. LOTS of people have just the opposite view than me.

Should we all run our wives past you? Will you dare go there with your philosophy?

Mark
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:20   #77
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Also, at least for me personally, my views are not as much about any maker per se as about the end product. For example my first boat, US27, turned out to be way better in both construction and sailing characteristics than I first expected (I actually didn't expect anything as I was not very familiar with any boats at the time) even though its parent company, Bayliner, not only was a mass producer of cheap plastic motor tubs but at the time of owning my brand also produced what are probably the ugliest and worst sailing American boats of all time, Buccaneers. Yet they did not touch their US brand subsidiary and let them continue do a good job. So I believe I can be objective, at least in my own eyes. ))
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:22   #78
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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So even when we do our best not to bash we still end up with bashers. I think we all know that some boats are better suited to one mission or another but just for the hell of it why can't we seem to rise above it and discuss the history of why these two brands got tarnished on the internet. Discovering the history is a little harder than bashing. Many of you have made a good effort and I certainly appreciate that but can't we do our best to stick to the history of why it is happening??
I guess I'm not sure how to interpret your rules for this thread. You want to discuss why a brand is hated without saying bad things about it. Sure...

Let me try to re-word my post:

I think your hypothesis is wrong. You seem to think that there's a reputation problem "on the internet" that doesn't exist in the real world. You also think this is because of some series of events in the past and you want to know what those are.

What if the reputation on the internet is just a reflection of their actual reputation? What if the actual reputation is because people just kinda think they're ugly and don't like their rigs? That's the case for me, so why not other people?
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:26   #79
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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What if the reputation on the internet is just a reflection of their actual reputation? What if the actual reputation is because people just kinda think they're ugly and don't like their rigs? That's the case for me, so why not other people?
I can't see this being the case. If looks and rigging were the reason, then many boats out there would have a bad reputation, and not just a couple.

The B&R rig is essentially what every catamaran has that is doing a horizon job on your boat.

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Old 08-01-2015, 13:27   #80
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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I guess I'm not sure how to interpret your rules for this thread. You want to discuss why a brand is hated without saying bad things about it. Sure...

Let me try to re-word my post:

I think your hypothesis is wrong. You seem to think that there's a reputation problem "on the internet" that doesn't exist in the real world. You also think this is because of some series of events in the past and you want to know what those are.

What if the reputation on the internet is just a reflection of their actual reputation? What if the actual reputation is because people just kinda think they're ugly and don't like their rigs? That's the case for me, so why not other people?
I hear you and respect your opinion but the rep started years ago and that was what I was interested in. You have every right to your opinion but maybe its more to do with your current views rather than the history and I was into history.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:30   #81
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
This implies that beauty is entirely subjective. This is not the case.

A Jaguar XKE is better looking than a Pontiac Aztec.
A pastoral landscape is better than a garbage dump.
The Mona Lisa is better than graffiti.
Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto beats the clamour of Universal 3-cylinder diesel.

These things are fundamentally true, not in the eye of the beholder.
Rubbish. There will be people (true, probably a minority) who will disagree on all of those points.

Beauty is entirely subjective. Of course it is.

I've often wondered, while polishing my boat, why do we like shiny better than dull? Dull would be so much easier. From a purely practical viewpoint there's little difference.

You might look at a timber ketch and see beauty. I'd just see something heavy cramped and slow, and too much work.

It's subjective, like it or not. And that's subjective too.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:34   #82
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I can't see this being the case. If looks and rigging were the reason, then many boats out there would have a bad reputation, and not just a couple.

The B&R rig is essentially what every catamaran has that is doing a horizon job on your boat.

Mark
Sure, but there's a good structural reason that catamarans make that design trade-off. I might make that same trade-off on a mono if I wanted to put a big fat-head sail on it, too. Most Hunters have pinhead sails, so that's not it.

If I could afford the boat, maintenance, and mooring, I'd have a cat with that rig in a New York minute. I don't think it's a plus on a Hunter with a pinhead sail, though.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:41   #83
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
This implies that beauty is entirely subjective. This is not the case.

A Jaguar XKE is better looking than a Pontiac Aztec.
A pastoral landscape is better than a garbage dump.
The Mona Lisa is better than graffiti.
Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto beats the clamour of Universal 3-cylinder diesel.

These things are fundamentally true, not in the eye of the beholder.

All of those things are subjective.

Some people like the Aztecs, and could care less about a Jag.

If you're a hungry rat, you may well like the dump better.

If you're a city artist, you probably appreciate the grafitti more.

Many boaters may care more about the running of a motor.


These are, in fact, all subjective judgments. You're providing YOUR fundamental truth.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:42   #84
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

There are a lot of members on CF. But I can tell you for a fact that if you put 6-10 of those members on your ignore list and then skip any post that starts with quote from one of those 6-10 members that a boat bashing thread as very little in it.

But I can also say for a fact that it isn't as easy as it sounds because we are weak when reading an internet forum . You just can not not look at a forum car cash on the side of internet.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:46   #85
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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If I could afford the boat, maintenance, and mooring, I'd have a cat with that rig in a New York minute. I don't think it's a plus on a Hunter with a pinhead sail, though.
I like my B&R rig just fine because I sail the boat the way it is met to.

But even if you don't like it why is that a reason to be an active basher? I don't like boats where the main sleeping space is a vee-berth, but don't use that to bash all the ones that have it.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:46   #86
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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So I believe I can be objective, at least in my own eyes.
You mean like everyone else who has an opinion?
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:58   #87
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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I like my B&R rig just fine because I sail the boat the way it is met to.

But even if you don't like it why is that a reason to be an active basher? I don't like boats where the main sleeping space is a vee-berth, but don't use that to bash all the ones that have it.
I'm not even sure what an active basher is, exactly or how you've decided that I am one.

I don't like Hunters and if people ask me, I'll tell them that. As I said before, this is primarily because I think they look like they've been optimized for sitting in a slip and I like to sail. They're the right boat for a lot of people, just not for me.
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:05   #88
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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I'm not even sure what an active basher is, exactly or how you've decided that I am one.

I don't like Hunters and if people ask me, I'll tell them that. As I said before, this is primarily because I think they look like they've been optimized for sitting in a slip and I like to sail. They're the right boat for a lot of people, just not for me.
Ya but you have a cored hull and everyone knows they leak and are dangerous!!

Just kidding I have always had a soft spot for Niagara's, lovely 35 footer but imagine if you got hit with that constantly cause thats how some of these guys feel.
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:06   #89
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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And I do agree that these conversations can only happen on the internet as real sailors never conduct themselves this way in real life.
Well, I'm pretty sure Ted Turner would make the cut as a "real sailor", no?

Presumably, you've never heard his classic remark to Brit Chance (the designer of my little tub, btw), after Brit's 12-Metre dog MARINER had been eliminated early on during the America's Cup Defender trials in 1974...

If this doesn't ring a bell, try plugging 'Ted Turner', 'Britton Chance', 'taper' and 'TURD' into the Google machine...

:-))
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:33   #90
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Well, I am totally unbiased and have read every post in this thread. Looks like when asked for facts, it immediately turns into a total **** show, with a bunch of hearsay and no actual factual info that points out any specific construction flaws in these boats.
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