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Old 12-01-2015, 17:22   #136
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Everyone has to make his own choices.
And what choice did you make for your cruising boat?
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Old 12-01-2015, 17:26   #137
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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I want to make sure that my comments are not about all Benni's nor all new entry level boats but in particular the Cyclades models. There certainly are many Benni models that are great boats for offshore sailing I just don't think this is one of them!
That's funny because Cyclades regarding Hull, rudder and mast are the same as Oceanis. What made them cheaper was less hatches, a lesser quality interior, a worst finish and a lesser quality on the sailing hardware. Nothing in what regards seaworthiness or boat safety.
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Old 12-01-2015, 17:39   #138
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

The Cyclades mast is not the same as the Oceanis, the Cyclades hull is not the same as the Oceanis, the Cyclades sport outboard chainplates and long sweep back spreaders ...
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Old 12-01-2015, 17:44   #139
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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So, Polux, please remind us what your expertise is. Do you service boats? Do you sell boats? Or are you just voicing uninformed opinions?
No, I do not sell boat but along the years I took an interest in Naval Architecture. Being myself an Architect has helped me to understand more easily design and the technical stuff regarding stability, materials, boat performance and so on. I have visited several modern shipyards and sailed several different types of modern boats. I exchange regularly information with many owners that sail contemporary designs of many types. Besides that I read a good number of nautical press in different languages and that gives me a pretty good idea of the boats on the market. I am also a sailor with some experience with about 35 000nm sailed on different boats.
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Old 12-01-2015, 17:48   #140
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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And what choice did you make for your cruising boat?
I spent the better part of a million dollars on a boat which is extremely strong and nevertheless very light. But it was just a lucky accident that I happened to have the money at that moment. I certainly couldn't afford to buy a boat like this if I were buying now.

Boats are like lots of things -- bicycles, airplanes -- they can be light, strong, or cheap -- pick any two. If I were forced to tradeoff light against strong, I would give up some strength, let's say some margin of error in strength, because all modern boats are more or less strong enough, and I like to sail, long distances and with some speed. I would worry more about hitting containers or getting damaged in a collision, than I do in my present boat, but there's always something to worry about at sea, isn't there?

Now the Bene rudder tubes on some models might be a serious design defect which goes beyond the normal tradeoff between light and cheap. But it sounds like it's been rectified with a recall. So I wouldn't hesitate to choose a Bene (or more likely, a Jeanneau), if that was what my budget allowed. I like them, and I like the way they sail.

Other people will make a different tradeoff and will buy something like an Island Packet -- which is nearly indestructible, and with its massive full keel with encapsulated ballast and fully protected, attached rudder will certainly never suffer any damage from any grounding.

Still other people, like Polux, would choose the most extreme racing-type design he could find. That's his choice, which I understand and respect, even if it's not my own choice.

How stupid would it be for me, to criticize someone else for making a different tradeoff and a different choice than mine? I would never do it. We should respect each other more.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:09   #141
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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I spent the better part of a million dollars on a boat which is extremely strong and nevertheless very light. But it was just a lucky accident that I happened to have the money at that moment. I certainly couldn't afford to buy a boat like this if I were buying now.

Boats are like lots of things -- bicycles, airplanes -- they can be light, strong, or cheap -- pick any two. If I were forced to tradeoff light against strong, I would give up some strength, let's say some margin of error in strength, because all modern boats are more or less strong enough, and I like to sail, long distances and with some speed. I would worry more about hitting containers or getting damaged in a collision, than I do in my present boat, but there's always something to worry about at sea, isn't there?

Now the Bene rudder tubes on some models might be a serious design defect which goes beyond the normal tradeoff between light and cheap. But it sounds like it's been rectified with a recall. So I wouldn't hesitate to choose a Bene (or more likely, a Jeanneau), if that was what my budget allowed. I like them, and I like the way they sail.

Other people will make a different tradeoff and will buy something like an Island Packet -- which is nearly indestructible, and with its massive full keel with encapsulated ballast and fully protected, attached rudder will certainly never suffer any damage from any grounding.

Still other people, like Polux, would choose the most extreme racing-type design he could find. That's his choice, which I understand and respect, even if it's not my own choice.

How stupid would it be for me, to criticize someone else for making a different tradeoff and a different choice than mine? I would never do it. We should respect each other more.
I certainly agree that everyone of us choose different boats for our own reasons and why would anyone want it any different? I will say though that my opinion on a builder screwing up a rudder assembly so royally as Beneteau "appears" to have done on the Cyclades series is stronger than yours. There is nothing much worse than losing your rudder on a fin keel boat offshore thousands of miles away from land. I would much rather be dismasted as I know I could rig something to sail to the other side but losing a spade rudder, maybe, maybe not, especially if it removes the rear end of the boat like happened to Blue Pearl. You would think a builder would have found every boat in that series they built and get them in for repairs but again it doesn't appear that that was done either. Just not that impressed but it means nothing to me personally, just thoughts on a late evening. with nothing better to do.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:18   #142
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Other people will make a different tradeoff and will buy something like an Island Packet -- which is nearly indestructible, and with its massive full keel with encapsulated ballast and fully protected, attached rudder will certainly never suffer any damage from any grounding.
"Never say never..." Some groundings are a bit 'harder' than others, after all...

:-)





I also believe the degree of "protection" afforded by that modest 'strap' connector to the rudders on many IP models tends to be a bit overstated, at times... :-)


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Old 12-01-2015, 18:19   #143
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I certainly agree that everyone of us choose different boats for our own reasons and why would anyone want it any different? I will say though that my opinion on a builder screwing up a rudder assembly so royally as Beneteau "appears" to have done on the Cyclades series is stronger than yours. There is nothing much worse than losing your rudder on a fin keel boat offshore thousands of miles away from land. I would much rather be dismasted as I know I could rig something to sail to the other side but losing a spade rudder, maybe, maybe not, especially if it removes the rear end of the boat like happened to Blue Pearl. You would think a builder would have found every boat in that series they built and get them in for repairs but again it doesn't appear that that was done either. Just not that impressed but it means nothing to me personally, just thoughts on a late evening. with nothing better to do.
If Beneteau had consistently produced boats with structural problems, I would agree with you. But they have not.

You need to cut them some slack -- because mass production to a price is a very hard thing -- it's actually much more challenging than hand building to superb quality standards with cost no object. It takes more engineering, more management, more organization, tougher tradeoffs. It's inevitable that you will slip up somewhere sooner or later, and it doesn't mean that everything they do is bad. And it's not just Bene who has slipped up -- plenty of high end yards have produced boats with some construction defect or another.

The benefit is you get a hell of a lot more boat for your money -- that's the payoff of efficient mass production.

Someday all boats will be mass produced, by robots. Hand production of automobiles ended decades ago. Technology will allow customization to your heart's content, even within a huge series production run.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:20   #144
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
"Never say never..." Some groundings are a bit 'harder' than others, after all...

:-)


Is that an Island Packet?? Wow!!
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:23   #145
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Basically since 2000 to 2012, i believe is when they start to screw things badly, i believe the small models like the 393 the 36CC, and the small family is safe in this regard, most likely from 40Ft upward, the Bene 50 without the Oceanis tag on it is safe in this matter since the top part of the tube rest in the top part of the deck, the tube itself dont have any support inside , just the top bearing in the deck, but at least it have some kind of strong support up there, the Oceanis 50, 46, 43,and 40 if i remember well have the funny ikea BS as structure support... just saying ... Thx anyway if you can take some shoots from your rudder tube somehow...
Neil,

Your statement and/or time line has me confused. If I understand your earlier post correctly, you're saying Beneteau's Oceanis line started in 2000? Or the Oceanis line made after 2000 has a poor design? Then this post says all of the large Beneteaus in the Oceanis line had a poor design. I'm just curious, because if my time line (for the 50') is correct, and I may be wrong is as follows:

Idylle 15.50 - last year was 1987
Oceanis 500 - 1988 to 1991
Oceanis 510 - 1992 to 1994
Beneteau 50 - 1995 to 2004

After 2004, there was the Cyclades 50.5, and the Oceanis 49. The Oceanis 50 returned in 2010.

I'm just curious, could you please clarify your statement.

And just to add to the discussion (not as fuel for any argument either way) as far my boat goes, the 510, the rudder post does not attach to any bulkhead. It has two large gusset in front and two on the sides that go from the top of the tube to the hull. I believe there is one going aft too but I haven't stuck my head back there as my hull is different than most other 510's. Mine has a drop down platform rather than the lockers commonly seen, which is kind of visible in the attached picture. If I ever get out of work at a decent hour, I'll take a picture of the rudder support.

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Old 12-01-2015, 18:32   #146
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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If Beneteau had consistently produced boats with structural problems, I would agree with you. But they have not.

You need to cut them some slack -- because mass production to a price is a very hard thing -- it's actually much more challenging than hand building to superb quality standards with cost no object. It takes more engineering, more management, more organization, tougher tradeoffs. It's inevitable that you will slip up somewhere sooner or later, and it doesn't mean that everything they do is bad. And it's not just Bene who has slipped up -- plenty of high end yards have produced boats with some construction defect or another.

The benefit is you get a hell of a lot more boat for your money -- that's the payoff of efficient mass production.

Someday all boats will be mass produced, by robots. Hand production of automobiles ended decades ago. Technology will allow customization to your heart's content, even within a huge series production run.
I certainly agree with your ides that all or most boats of the future will be mass produced.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:33   #147
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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If Beneteau had consistently produced boats with structural problems, I would agree with you. But they have not.

You need to cut them some slack -- because mass production to a price is a very hard thing -- it's actually much more challenging than hand building to superb quality standards with cost no object.
I would certainly agree with you on this except when some very respected members who know these boats inside out talk about construction defects then I start to wonder. Also, the discussion about when a boat takes a light grounding it should be hauled out and inspected for exterior and interior structural damage. A cruising boat has to be able to withstand some grounding, some light pounding without suffering structural damage. I have been there/done that. IMHO. I don't thing there is anything that would survive the grounding on the rocks and surf pictured above. Not even war ships.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:36   #148
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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You need to cut them some slack
Oh? Why? And what do you think the owners of Blue Pearl would say in response to that statement?

And your report of enjoying a short charter in a Bennie... well, that is hardly a testimonial leading to selection of that model for extended offshore usage, the situation that most of us are considering here.

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Old 12-01-2015, 18:43   #149
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
I would certainly agree with you on this except when some very respected members who know these boats inside out talk about construction defects then I start to wonder. Also, the discussion about when a boat takes a light grounding it should be hauled out and inspected for exterior and interior structural damage. A cruising boat has to be able to withstand some grounding, some light pounding without suffering structural damage. I have been there/done that. IMHO. I don't thing there is anything that would survive the grounding on the rocks and surf pictured above. Not even war ships.
I agree that if you have to haul every time you have a light grounding that this is pretty poor. But I'm not sure I believe that that applies to Benes, at least, to all of them. We know lots of Bene sailors, and they don't live in terror of touching the ground.

I hit a rock -- hard -- in my boat last summer. There was a thread about it. A completely uncharted rock in the Baltic where there should have been 5 meters of water. Occasionally encountering the seabed is certainly part of normal use of a cruising boat -- I agree with you. I was glad for the 22mm keel bolts and massive keel stub.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:44   #150
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Re: Another Bene with broken rudder bits

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Is that an Island Packet?? Wow!!
Yes, that was a 485 from the Island Yachts charter fleet, lost at St John back around Christmas...

IPs are pretty stout boats... I have little doubt it put up a far tougher fight against that sort of battering than most would have...

Pitiful sight indeed, very fortunate none of the charter party was injured or lost, sounded like a pretty dicey situation...
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