Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-03-2013, 21:05   #61
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Aluminum Boat

Nick, Dave, David

Please clarify what sort of protection you feel is necessary for an aluminum boat that has zero A/C and minimal D/C that is normally off.

Panope has been in the water for a total of 19 years. She has never had any A/C equipment. The D/C negative has been isolated from the hull. When no one is aboard (most of the time) the battery switch is off, and when I say "off" I mean everything is off. Zincs have always deteriorated very slowly. Never had any corrosion.

Am I lucky or is my experience typical for a "disconnected" boat?

Thanks,

Steve
__________________

Panope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2013, 21:08   #62
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Nick, Dave, David

Please clarify what sort of protection you feel is necessary for an aluminum boat that has zero A/C and minimal D/C that is normally off.

Panope has been in the water for a total of 19 years. She has never had any A/C equipment. The D/C negative has been isolated from the hull. When no one is aboard (most of the time) the battery switch is off, and when I say "off" I mean everything is off. Zincs have always deteriorated very slowly. Never had any corrosion.

Am I lucky or is my experience typical for a "disconnected" boat?

Thanks,

Steve
An isolation transformer is for a shore power connection only so if you don't have that, you don't need it. But I don't see many boats without shore power connections.... You don't have that? no battery charger etc?
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2013, 21:26   #63
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
An isolation transformer is for a shore power connection only so if you don't have that, you don't need it. But I don't see many boats without shore power connections.... You don't have that? no battery charger etc?
Thanks Jedi

That is correct. No Shore power. No Charger. I do not even have an electric bilge pump (I might add a Diaphragm type - so no wires in bilge).

I have recently installed my first ever solar panel. The panels chassis and negative wire are not connected to the hull and I will probably (still on the hard) not leave the panel "on" when away from the boat.

I also have an On/Off battery switch that disconnects the battery Neg. from the engine block. I only turn that switch on when running the engine.

Steve
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Battery Switch Panel 004.jpg
Views:	146
Size:	414.9 KB
ID:	58265  
Panope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2013, 21:32   #64
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Aluminum Boat

That looks good Steve. Get a Brother P-touch label maker and add labels for every switch and fuse. You want anybody to know which is your house battery and which is the starter battery for example. I like it how you followed the good info about the switches instead of those 1-2-both-off versions! Well done

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Thanks Jedi

That is correct. No Shore power. No Charger. I do not even have an electric bilge pump (I might add a Diaphragm type - so no wires in bilge).

I have recently installed my first ever solar panel. The panels chassis and negative wire are not connected to the hull and I will probably (still on the hard) not leave the panel "on" when away from the boat.

I also have an On/Off battery switch that disconnects the battery Neg. from the engine block. I only turn that switch on when running the engine.

Steve
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2013, 21:51   #65
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
That looks good Steve. Get a Brother P-touch label maker and add labels for every switch and fuse. You want anybody to know which is your house battery and which is the starter battery for example. I like it how you followed the good info about the switches instead of those 1-2-both-off versions! Well done
An overlay panel (painted plywood) with holes for the switches is in the works. Will label for sure. But your suggestion to label everything under the overlay is a good one also. It seems so obvious to me (as the builder) what does what. Then again, no one knows what sort of usefulness my own brain will have in 20 years or so.

And yes, I hated the old 1-2-both switch with two identically sized batteries. It was information on the CF that got me thinking of alternatives.

Steve
Panope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 02:53   #66
Registered User
 
surfmachine's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Cruising the West coast of Sumatra and the offshore islands, surfing!!
Boat: Feltz Skorpion mark 11A, Aluminium 39' sloop, constructed Hamburg. http://photobucket.com/eloise_01
Posts: 674
Images: 9
Send a message via Skype™ to surfmachine
Re: Aluminum Boat

Ahoy Steve.
It has been apparent to me that pressure pumps, both for fresh and salt water were a cause of earth leakage onto the hull, mainly when they were running!
So no more permanently wired pumps of any type!

I never connect to shore power. I have an onboard honda genset that can work through the shore power inlet to charge the batteries through a 40 amp sterling charger. In, fact, when in a marina I never, ever, connect to the dock power!

With 3 solar panels of 170 watts I always have nearly full batteries, the new MPPT solar tracker regulator is a wonder! Also, two wind gennies can be used, but mostly tied off as they are not regulated. With 540 amphour of batteries as well, no need for extra charging or shore power!

Also, never, ever use a mooring! Always drop the anchor and dig it in. Had a "new" one fail on me after 3 days in Ao Charong at Phuket, at 3am!!!! Heard many tales of woe about failed moorings!!!

I have a bright red LED light on the fuse panel, one side connected to the positive 12V bus and the other to the hull. If any leakage, it glows brightly. Funnily enough, I wondered why the PO had a double pole switch on the VHF radio, found out when I installed the LED, it glowed when the VHF is on, the earth braid is exposed somewhere in the mast and allows earth leakage to the hull. But, now that the standard horizon AIS, VHF is wired into the NMEA bus, the double pole switch does not do any good, even when off, and I have disconnected the shield braid from the coax line, until I replace the antenna cable!!

Also, never have the motor permantly earthed!! I have a big, huge double pole relay, handles 200 amps, for the positive and negative 12V feeds to the starter motor and glow plugs. Makes a lot of noise, but only feeds 12V power to the block when glowing the glow plugs and starting the motor with the starter motor!

Alternator also has to be electrically isolated from the block with insulated wiring posts or nylon bushes on the mounts.

Then, no more hull corrosion????

I always leave my yacht on the hardstand when I am away for 4 to 6 months, and leave the solar panels on.

Cheers from Keith.
__________________
Keith, "But I was born very young and grew up knowing little of the world!" http://surfmachine-surfmachine.blogspot.com.au/
surfmachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 07:55   #67
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Guys,

While not connecting to shore power does prevent any truble with it, remember that we are allowed luxuries like AC power can provide and a shore power connection with correctly installed isolation transformer provides the same level of protection as using a genset. Exactly the same. And it's easy to do.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 08:05   #68
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panope View Post
Nick, Dave, David

Please clarify what sort of protection you feel is necessary for an aluminum boat that has zero A/C and minimal D/C that is normally off.
Thanks,

Steve
At minimum you want an epoxy coated hull and hull anodes. I have six fish shaped anodes that are welded to the hull. I am in disagreement that an isolation transformer is necessary. (Just get a transformer if it cures an existing electrolysis problem) I use an isolator, which cured an electrolysis problem I was having many years ago. Do not connect any of your AC or DC system to the hull. I have 22 years of first hand experience with an aluminum hull.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 08:33   #69
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
I am in disagreement that an isolation transformer is necessary. (Just get a transformer if it cures an existing electrolysis problem) I use an isolator.
Wow! I am very curious what new discoveries you have done that make isolation transformers are necessary for shore power installations aboard aluminium vessels.

Sure, if your epoxy coating is perfect and your wiring and every electrical device and the shore power outlet perfect too then you might be okay without it. But when you cruise around the world (and this is a cruisers forum) then you'll find conditions not so perfect and you will need it. Unless you take the damage for granted of-course.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 09:01   #70
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Wow! I am very curious what new discoveries you have done that make isolation transformers are necessary for shore power installations aboard aluminium vessels.
Did you mean unnecessary?
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 09:10   #71
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 1,593
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Guys,

While not connecting to shore power does prevent any truble with it, remember that we are allowed luxuries like AC power can provide and a shore power connection with correctly installed isolation transformer provides the same level of protection as using a genset. Exactly the same. And it's easy to do.
As a local waters cruiser, (I live in a house) my needs are very minimal.

I agree that an aluminum boat can be safely set up with all of the electrical conveniences and luxuries that Nick so thoroughly enjoys on Jedi. However, my "day job" as me dealing with a lot of complicated equipment and I want to keep my hobbies and vacations on the boat a simple as possible. Activities like rowing the dingy to get some ice are just part of the fun for me.

Steve
Panope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 09:50   #72
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Aluminum Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Did you mean unnecessary?
Yes, I'm flabbergasted about how I got to post that... I killed the auto-correct or so I thought...
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 16:43   #73
Registered User
 
surfmachine's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Cruising the West coast of Sumatra and the offshore islands, surfing!!
Boat: Feltz Skorpion mark 11A, Aluminium 39' sloop, constructed Hamburg. http://photobucket.com/eloise_01
Posts: 674
Images: 9
Send a message via Skype™ to surfmachine
Re: Aluminum Boat

Ahoy Jedi.
Would the Sterling, 40 amp charger, have an isolating transformer in it? I am not on my boat at present.
Cheers from Keith.
ProDigital
http://www.sterling-power.com/images...ro-digital.jpg

Pro Digital

Gold output fuse


Remote control

Product information

The new DIGITAL range of battery chargers is the latest high tech upgrade on the Pro-Budget, Pro-Sport, International and Small International battery chargers. All the power benefits of the standard system are retained but the control, safety and information aspects have been upgraded beyond recognition. The latest benefits offered by digital control system are highlighted in the Quick Check. Digital control ensures more accurate control, more battery information type storage in the software, more real time calculations to be done to ensure the best charge, more information is also available in the control chip which can then be displayed on the new remote control and information panel which is supplied as a optional in the small range but as standard in the large range.

Technical information

DC volts Amps Mains Hertz Size (mm) Weight (kg) Code
12V 30 230V 50Hz 340x195x60 3.0 1230CED
12V 40 230V 50Hz 340x195x60 3.0 1240CED
12V 50 230V 50Hz 340x195x60 3.0 1250CED
24V 25 230V 50Hz 340x195x60 3.0 2425CED
Remote 170x90x40 1.0 CEDRC
__________________
Keith, "But I was born very young and grew up knowing little of the world!" http://surfmachine-surfmachine.blogspot.com.au/
surfmachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2013, 16:54   #74
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
No. I vaguely remember something about a charger or so that was said to isolate but when I checked it didn't.

Google for a Victron Isolation Transformer to get an idea. They have a 3.6kW version which does well for boats with max. 16A/230V or 30A/120V.
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
J-B Weld on Aluminum ? unbusted67 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 12 26-02-2017 04:43
How Are Aluminum Hulls ? Badgerman Multihull Sailboats 21 09-11-2010 03:28
SSB Grounding on an Aluminum Boat Namoian Marine Electronics 34 16-07-2010 09:59
Aluminum Stanchions ? 04 Marine Construction, Maintenance & Refit 24 10-04-2010 18:11
Solar Panels on an Aluminum Boat Namoian Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 7 10-02-2010 22:32



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:02.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.