Northwest Passage - 2017

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Jack I was referring to the particulate matter in the exhaust that settles rapidly out and onto the ice. Not the longer lived voc's

That is called soot, and it does decrease albedo.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jackdale

That is called soot, and it does decrease albedo.

Exactly what I have been saying now there are over a hundred icebreakers (dont know how many active in arctic ocean at a time) doing what this one was doing will have a significant negative effect.

[SailOar]

The first two reports by a journalist passing through the NWP, reporting on the Arctic communities and history of the area.

The Arctic’s fabled passage is opening up. This is what it looks like | Washington Post

Even small boats are tackling the fabled Northwest Passage. The ice doesn’t always cooperate. | Washington Post

A boat and an iceberg sit in a foggy Resolute Bay, Nunavut, on Aug. 4, 2017. (Alice Li/The Washington Post)

[jackdale]

Sailing To The North Pole, Thanks To Global Warming : NPR

[newhaul]

Part of the sea ice loss problem.
Icebreakers - Ships and Itineraries 2017, 2018, 2019 | CruiseMapper
However it is just my personal opinion on the issue.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Sailing To The North Pole, Thanks To Global Warming : NPR

An interesting picture of the North Pole, taken yesterday. The actual pole is to the center right, where the converging lines meet. The largest floes are about 1 1/2 miles across... The concerning issue here is that this scene is ubiquitous throughout the Arctic Ocean, and illustrates that the real issue is the increasing heat content of the ocean, globally, and the rate at which it is increasing.

What now seems likely is that, while the minimum sea ice extent will remain somewhat steady for the next few years, when the heat content reaches a certain point, the sea ice at both poles will rapidly decrease in the spring and be slow to increase in the fall, and, because of the ocean's higher base temperature, may fail to form at all. What pressure and temperature effects that that will have on the planet's atmospheric circulation is, I hope, not something I'll be around to see...

Originally Posted by newhaul

Part of the sea ice loss problem.
Icebreakers - Ships and Itineraries 2017, 2018, 2019 | CruiseMapper
However it is just my personal opinion on the issue.

So they're airlifting these icebreakers into Ellesmere Island, at about 82 N, to bust up the ice in this fjord? Note that it is ice-locked at both ends...


Or this one, at 81N, in extreme northeast Greenland, icelocked on one end and landlocked on the other?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

An interesting picture of the North Pole, taken yesterday. The actual pole is to the center right, where the converging lines meet. The largest floes are about 1 1/2 miles across... The concerning issue here is that this scene is ubiquitous throughout the Arctic Ocean, and illustrates that the real issue is the increasing heat content of the ocean, globally, and the rate at which it is increasing.

What now seems likely is that, while the minimum sea ice extent will remain somewhat steady for the next few years, when the heat content reaches a certain point, the sea ice at both poles will rapidly decrease in the spring and be slow to increase in the fall, and, because of the ocean's higher base temperature, may fail to form at all. What pressure and temperature effects that that will have on the planet's atmospheric circulation is, I hope, not something I'll be around to see...






So they're airlifting these icebreakers into Ellesmere Island, at about 82 N, to bust up the ice in this fjord? Note that it is ice-locked at both ends...


Or this one, at 81N, in extreme northeast Greenland, icelocked on one end and landlocked on the other?

I never said all of the breakers were an issue or that they all were even still operational.
I did however look at the page showing several (at least 5) that are curently operating in the Canadian archipelago. ( the northwest passage)

[jackdale]

Arctic voyage finds global warming impact on ice, animals - ABC News

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

An interesting picture of the North Pole, taken yesterday. The actual pole is to the center right, where the converging lines meet. The largest floes are about 1 1/2 miles across... The concerning issue here is that this scene is ubiquitous throughout the Arctic Ocean, and illustrates that the real issue is the increasing heat content of the ocean, globally, and the rate at which it is increasing.

What now seems likely is that, while the minimum sea ice extent will remain somewhat steady for the next few years, when the heat content reaches a certain point, the sea ice at both poles will rapidly decrease in the spring and be slow to increase in the fall, and, because of the ocean's higher base temperature, may fail to form at all. What pressure and temperature effects that that will have on the planet's atmospheric circulation is, I hope, not something I'll be around to see...






So they're airlifting these icebreakers into Ellesmere Island, at about 82 N, to bust up the ice in this fjord? Note that it is ice-locked at both ends...


Or this one, at 81N, in extreme northeast Greenland, icelocked on one end and landlocked on the other?

Here is a link for what ships are in the northwest passage

AKADEMIK SERGEY VAVILOV ICEBREAKER current position tracker | CruiseMapper

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Here is a link for what ships are in the northwest passage

AKADEMIK SERGEY VAVILOV ICEBREAKER current position tracker | CruiseMapper

Marine Traffic shows other vessels in the NWP.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...ry:67.8/zoom:4

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I never said all of the breakers were an issue or that they all were even still operational.
I did however look at the page showing several (at least 5) that are curently operating in the Canadian archipelago. ( the northwest passage)

Nor did I.

The point is that the melting is happening in places that are untouched by icebreakers...


Some pertinent numbers:

From your list of 70 already built icebreakers, a good average 'hull footprint' (the square footage of the hull taken up on the surface of the ocean) is about 20000 sq ft x 70 = 1,400,000 sq ft. A square mile of ocean is 27 million square feet, so all the icebreakers in the worlds footprints, combined, equal less than 1/20th square mile.

There are 5,427,000 square miles in the Arctic alone, and the ice, for now at least, freezes (to some extent) anew, every year...

[Telesail]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Some pertinent numbers:

From your list of 70 already built icebreakers, a good average 'hull footprint' (the square footage of the hull taken up on the surface of the ocean) is about 20000 sq ft x 70 = 1,400,000 sq ft. A square mile of ocean is 27 million square feet, so all the icebreakers in the worlds footprints, combined, equal less than 1/20th square mile.

There are 5,427,000 square miles in the Arctic alone, and the ice, for now at least, freezes (to some extent) anew, every year...

I am not sure how pertinent those specific numbers are. I had always been told that the main issue with icebreakers is not their size nor the amount of ice that they break up but that they separate ice from the fringes of the ice sheets, mobilizing it to head south and encounter warmer waters, thereby increasing the amount that melts.

On a separate topic, reduction in albedo has much less to do with a few individual vessels operating in the Arctic region than being the result of all the badly adjusted diesels and biomass burning or any other process that puts black carbon into the atmosphere in the northern hemisphere. Atmospheric circulation will ultimately deposit it fairly evenly so that the Arctic ice sheets get their proportionate share. The same process occurs in the southern hemisphere but the smaller proportion of the world's population living south of the equator means that the Antarctic suffers less.

[Dauntlessny]

While I'm interested in the Arctic and have been my whole life.
This thread gets harder and harder to read.

Climate change is happening and has been going on since the end of the last ice age.
That's why most of us are not under a 1000 feet of ice now.

So let's move on.

I expect that in a hundred years the Arctic may be ice free.

In 1000 or 10,000 probably ice free the year around.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

While I'm interested in the Arctic and have been my whole life.
This thread gets harder and harder to read.

Climate change is happening and has been going on since the end of the last ice age.
That's why most of us are not under a 1000 feet of ice now.

So let's move on.

I expect that in a hundred years the Arctic may be ice free.

In 1000 or 10,000 probably ice free the year around.

Actually we are still in an interglacial period of the current Holocene ice age
https://www.google.com/search?safe=i...loc=0&hl=en-US

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dauntlessny

While I'm interested in the Arctic and have been my whole life.
This thread gets harder and harder to read.

Climate change is happening and has been going on since the end of the last ice age.
That's why most of us are not under a 1000 feet of ice now.

So let's move on.

I expect that in a hundred years the Arctic may be ice free.

In 1000 or 10,000 probably ice free the year around.

In 10,000, it's more likely to be under a mile of ice year round.