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Mario · 28-07-2005, 19:55

I once took a look at the US maritime something about boat accidents. It had information accidents in the US and more than 90% of those occurred with small power boats, in fact, just like the one I own! And that's not only due to lack of experience, but to lack of responsability, alcohol, drugs, and others just accidents that can happen to anyone.

As for sailing boats, there were as I recall one or two fatilities, in one whole year, for a country like the US, that is huge.

So, if we have anyone to blame then blame it on the power boats, for which accidents are easier to occur mainly due to high speed.

And keep in mind that they consider heart attacks and that kind of stuff as an accident, when in fact it's not really the same as drowning due to your stupidity or poor decision.

As for the ones whose "job" is to rescue others, I continue to state that it's a job. They do it cause they want to.

I'm a healthcare professional, and I continue to take care of people regardless of their stupidity, even when they don't follow my advices. I try to educate people as well as I can in relaion to my professional field, but I don't turn my back on them just because they live as they want.

That's why I started writing in this forum. I like positive criticism. pat and Ali shouldn't probably started their voyage like they did. They should probably have bought another boat, etc etc.

But they are out there now, so we should give our advices (not mine as i'm even more inexperienced as they were when they started) support and show them that even if they made a mistake, there is always a way to deal with adversities and there is always room to learn.

mariog · 28-07-2005, 23:04

this is getting good...

where's my pop corn

CSY Man · 28-07-2005, 23:33

Quote:

To me, it's more important to deal with global warming and these weather patterns changes we're seeing (not to mention all the wars that kill so many innocent people) than being worried or even discuss two guys for their actions.

Excellent, then start a thread on those subjects instead of defending the stupid actions we have been reading about.

As for the rescures just doing their job and it is their duty, etc.

Not so sure.

A volunteer or proffesional rescuer is putting his or her life on line in case of an ACCIDENT, not to rescue people from their own stupidity.

I know, I was an ambulance bush pilot in Alaska and many times I flew out in the snow storms over the tundra with a doctor or nurse to save some people that had a snow-mobile accident in the middle of the night when they were drunk and crazy.

Easily avoided, yet me and my crew put our life on line to save their stupis arses..

Perhaps I am just conservative or old fashioned, but when I go sailing these days, I make sure that all possible preparations are done and complete so I won't have to ask for help, or put somebody else at risk, unless of course it is a real bona-fida emergency.

Guess I am just being considerate.

.

boredinthecity · 29-07-2005, 00:50

Back to Pat & Ali and the log 11 July

Quote:

So going back a few days we motored through the night and by morning had come to the Wide Bay bar crossing. It seems to have a pretty notorious reputation around these parts and just a few weeks ago flipped a 42' catamaran over, so we were paying extra attention on this one. As the sun came up we suddenly found that we were just one of about ten boats that were heading for the bar. Apparently there is an anchorage nearby where all the boats had been waiting through the night for the morning flood tide. So everybody basically filed in one after the other, a couple of boats even leaving a sail up while they went through. The bar has one section called the Mad Mile and even though we were going through at the perfect time and with very little swell you could still get a sense of how ugly an area it could be.

My take on this:

They have learnt from Yamba lessons including how the bars operate, as well as respect for local knowledge. Anyone who doesn’t know the bars on the east coast could learn a lot from this passage. Now they have been hanging with local up north with good local knowledge.

Paul

**Alan Wheeler** · 29-07-2005, 05:42

Mario, you have to realise that not all rescue organisations around the world, are like that of the USA. Here in NZ, they are voluntary. Sometimes they are people just like you and me, that are close to the scene. And actually, by maritime law, fellow boaties are required to offer assistance to those in truoble.
We have an Airforce that takes care of SAR's further offshore and a small HQ that has paid staff, to do the co-ordination of a SAR. But this comes at the expense of us, the taxpayer and we are a small country with limited funds.
Also, it is often a private vessel/ship close by that has to do the actual rescue. Especially out in the Pacific. You can't just land a plane and it is often way out of range for a Helicopter. Our Navey is called upon to do deep southern ocean rescues, but it often day's or weeks before they can be on scene. So thus the next point to consider. Maybe rescue is not going to be possible in time. This may come at a cost to the persons/crew's life.
And the third point, should the vessel be lost, then maybe insurance, (if it is insured) will cover the loss. But that has an affect on what you and I have to pay for our insurance.
And then I guess the last point is, if it isn't insured, then it could be the loss of everything the owner has, including the dreams.
Just something to think about.

**Alan Wheeler** · 29-07-2005, 05:42

Mario, you have to realise that not all rescue organisations around the world, are like that of the USA. Here in NZ, they are voluntary. Sometimes they are people just like you and me, that are close to the scene. And actually, by maritime law, fellow boaties are required to offer assistance to those in truoble.
We have an Airforce that takes care of SAR's further offshore and a small HQ that has paid staff, to do the co-ordination of a SAR. But this comes at the expense of us, the taxpayer and we are a small country with limited funds.
Also, it is often a private vessel/ship close by that has to do the actual rescue. Especially out in the Pacific. You can't just land a plane and it is often way out of range for a Helicopter. Our Navey is called upon to do deep southern ocean rescues, but it often day's or weeks before they can be on scene. So thus the next point to consider. Maybe rescue is not going to be possible in time. This may come at a cost to the persons/crew's life.
And the third point, should the vessel be lost, then maybe insurance, (if it is insured) will cover the loss. But that has an affect on what you and I have to pay for our insurance.
And then I guess the last point is, if it isn't insured, then it could be the loss of everything the owner has, including the dreams.
Just something to think about.

Mario · 29-07-2005, 08:52

Come on people. You seem not to fully understand all i'm saying.

I agree with you when it comes to safety measures and safe boating above all.

Although I don´t sail offshore I operate my power boat which I realise is very prone to accidents with family and friends, and I always take all the safety measures before and during our rides, for being the owner I am responsible for theirs and my life.

But when it comes to anyone from the other side of the world, that I don't know, never met, doing what P&A did, I just find interesting that they are doing it. I surely can't believe those two are such ignorants as they pretend to be from what they write on their website. They must completely exagerate. Anyway, I like reading their logs, no matter who they are or what they know.

And to me the idea that a sailor/cruiser has to be an artist, a phylosopher or erudite is just nonsense. And from reading some of your posts and not being a sailor but more of an outsider, that's the idea it gives.

And that bothers me...

TigerPaws · 30-07-2005, 18:51

Having followed Pat & Ali's adventures (and misadventures) sense the begining and being a full time cuiser myself I can say that I find their logs interesting, frighting and humorous. Yes I will give them a lot of credit for making it as far as they have gone so far and for doing what most only deam of, sailing off into the sunset. But on the other hand they are pushing the limits of their luck, with no experience and no real clue as to what they are doing it will be a miracle if they do not have a serious mishap or worse they are never heard from again.
The sea should be met with great respect and they (Pat & Ali) do not have that attitude, yes they have been very lucky so far and I do hope their luck holds out but I doubt it will. Not having the proper respect for the sea will do nothing but get you killed.
Having sailed our Lagoon 570 cat from Florida to South America in 2003 where we waited for the Hurricane season to end then back to Florida and across the Atlantic to the Med. for the next Hurricane season then back again to Florida where we are refitting our boat so we can be off again I speak with some experience. I will continue to follow their adventures and misadventures but I will not be surprised if someday the site goes down for good.
I do whish them the best of luck because they are going to need it.
As for their lack of respect for the places, people and cultures they are visiting, well what do you expect of the Gen X crowd.

Michael
SeaQuest OE
Lagoon 570 refitting here in Florida

TigerPaws · 31-07-2005, 13:59

Having read their latest log entries I can not help but wonder what may happen to them should they take a lighting strike and loose all of their electronics?

"We did manage to get another boat project worked on. In the never ending search for the source of miscellaneous water leaks we removed one of the ceiling panels today and found the spot, the fiberglass base that was made for the compass. Wish they hadn't even installed a compass, we've never used the thing and now we find a leak because of it."

Do they EVEN know how to use a comapss?

Michael
SeaQuest OE
Lagoon 570 in Florida for refitting

austi012 · 31-07-2005, 17:29

Sure they don't need to read a compass. They just follow the road signs.

Except they're not in English, which is just so vexing.

theloneoux · 01-08-2005, 03:49

If you want to understand the ethos and zeitgeist of those who are critiquing the bumfuzzle.com blog then compare www.bumfuzzle.com to www.atomvoyages.com. You will find an unbridgeable chasm that stretches between the mindset of James Baldwin of Atom and Pat of Bumfuzzle. I - I am a mid-thirties beginning cruiser hoping to circumnav soon - subscribe to the more humble approach of Atom and shrink from the superficiality of Bumfuzzle. Nevermind the insipid banality of Pat & Ali, what I cannot stomach is the ignorant style with which they - Pat & Ali - conduct themselves in regard to the world at large. My desire to travel the world is largely based on wanting to experience nature in her raw state (at a pace with which time might actually feel a little slower), people and culture that are closer to the earth and whose attitudes and lifestyle are less corrupted by the bombastic media complex that permeates so much of life nowadays. I look forward to the refreshing simplicity of other places and as such I am not rushing to major cities to look for experiences that I could just as easily have, and pay for, without ever leaving the city. Life is a long lesson in humility – I am afraid Pat might have a stern taskmaster from whom the lesson will be learned.

gunpilot · 01-08-2005, 05:04

Okay this is my first posting to this site.

Let me first start by saying this: Should Have, Could Have, Would Have. I will not go down on this earth saying these words! Do you want to? Life is a gift, live every day like it was your last or go to bed sitting in front of the TV, naked, drunk and with a bag of Cheeto's in your lap. One thing I have learned in this world: Humans are cruel, if you have what they don’t, talk about them, If they have what you want, try to destroy or damage it. If they don’t do it your way, hack on them. Simple human nature but think about it! Have you seen it before?

I have been in the military 21 years, seen a lot of this planet by land, seen a lot of it by air, haven’t seen a lot of it by water yet and there is a whole lot more water out there than land. I am tired and for once in my life want to live instead of protecting what most of this country takes for granted. I want to relax on waters secluded and not hear my neighbor at 4am in a shitty town home. At the age of 39 I bought my first sailboat today. A Gemini 34 that will soon be my retirement home. I have no experience at sailing but can learn just as I did learning to fly. Weather still remains weather, wind still remains wind, just now have to apply this current component to navigation. This should be much easier, now I’m not being shot at!

In 1985 I met a couple when I was TDY to Boca Chica NAS in the Florida Keys, they were walking along the road with bags of grocery's in their arms and I pulled over in a Navy van that was loaned to us and offered them a ride. Turns out they where staying at the small marina the Navy base had there on a sailboat that I can’t remember. They invited me for lunch the next day and to go sailing. We went for a leisurely cruise, went spinnaker diving, snorkeling and they made a great Conch dinner for me. I will never forget it and to this day place it as my first and foremost dream.

We all have dreams no matter what age we are. Today one of my biggest dreams came true and for the first time seeing this website wondering if what I did today was wrong. Over the past year as I near retirement I have searched many websites. Looking for information on experience and lessons learned. To include the Bumfuzzle site. Young yes they are, living, yes they are too! I have conversed with Pat and Ali on several occasions thru e-mail, they are just like me, young unafraid and living the dream. How can you find them wrong for what they are doing? They live their life as they see fit. Its not your life, its theirs. Is there a set plan in the cruising community that says you must abide by these rules? Please send me the rulebook! I am 39, Pat and Ali are younger but not by much. Is this the kind of experience I should expect as a new and young cruiser.

I look forward to meeting all of you on my first cruise!

Bobby

CW3 Bobby Keene
AH-64D Test Pilot, AH-64D Instructor Pilot
U.S. Army, Ft. Rucker AL
(e-mail) gunpilot@earthlink.net

**Alan Wheeler** · 01-08-2005, 05:56

Dude, chill out. You need a damn good vacation on a boat. Glad to hear you are going for it.
Here is a quote from "The Boating Bible", by Author Jim Murrant, about Safety.

"Generally speaking, safety on boats involves willing acceptance of regulation by unregulated people."

OK, lets look at this from a different perspective. You can't fly that plane without some flight training, now can you. You have to know at least a few basics. It's easy getting a plane into the air, but flying it around in a crowded airspace means you have to abide by some basic rules. You have to understand weather and you have to abide by the control tower for take of and landing clearance and finally, you have to get the thing back onto the ground. Right??? Now I guess those few simple rules are all one really needs to know to be able to fly. Take off, fly around without hitting anyone, don't fly into a storm and land again. Simple really. But you can go on and learn much much more right? You just don't HAVE to for a basic flight.
Flying and sailing are very similar. In fact, many, including a few here, do both. But just as for flying, Sailing has a few rules. You don't have to know them all. In fact you can get away with little. But a few are most important.

Here's another wee story. I lost a freind in a boating accident a year ago. Very experianced. You couldn't find more experiance in anybody. Did yacht deliveries all over the world. He was Sailing up in the Med area, with him and one other crew on a delivery trip. It was a Ketch. For some reason he fell from the Mizzen, overboard and was never found. Total shock, cause this guy knew what he was doing.
Now what if Pat falls overboard. Does Ali know how to turn that thing around, most likely in a heavy sea and do a the recovery technique? I hope they do and Aren't saying they don't. But I also suspect they don't.
My wife and I are going to short hand sail the world-- Eventually. Yes we are doing it, we take our first major offshore this year. But I am setting the boat up and training my wife, that in the case that maybe something happens to me, She can get the thing home or to a port of safety. Can Ali do that?? I hope so.

Mate, just relax. No one here is rubbishing Pat and Ali. No one is Gossiping behind their backs. I know they know of this site and Pat has read it. It is thier choice if they want to jump in or not. They would be most welcome if they did.
But you have to, just have to wonder if Pat ain't yanking our chains every now and then, because some of the experiance are the likes os landing at a major airport with no radio contact and no idea how to land

Mario · 01-08-2005, 09:35

Well Al, that's a good point comparing flying a plane and sailing a boat. Not really the same threat to others when sailing, but ok for comparing the rules.

But after so many miles sailed, aren't they prepared like some of the folks that go circumnavigating? How many guys go after so many miles sailed?

I also think that they had some kind of sailing courses prior to their take off. They would be better prepared if they have had some offshore courses and safety courses, sure, but look at your unfortunate friend's example, sometimes that doens't matter.

I really emphasize my feeling that the cruising community should above all be positive and welcome new people and educate them, sharing experiences, rather than criticizing the way people live their lives, their interests or their food choices. These are really just academic discussions that lead us nowhere.