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Old 03-04-2012, 13:03   #121
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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LH44, your points may be valid and express your views, but "sailing" per se is not the topic of this thread. This thread is specifically about the philosophy of sailing simply and cheaply. IMHO.....
My point is that the "simply and cheaply" are one means to the end of sailing; in context, they are minor aspects of the conditions of a major goal and not a "philosophy" at all. It's like the philosophy of popping pop corn for movie goers.

I've sailed simply and cheaply at times in my life. I've also gone the very opposite direction at times. Those are very different things than a commitment to protect the earth. I don't dump garbage in the ocean just because it's legal when you get far enough out there. I consider it wrong everywhere. That's true whether I'm on a simple and cheap boat or a very complex and expensive one.

Those who argue that their commitment to simplicity is their contribution to a better earth need to give up their Dacron sails and lines - Dacron comes from petroleum, go back to cotton sails, cause cotton is a renewable resource and hemp for lines is too, etc. etc. Thoreau wouldn't use Dacron! How far do you plan to go?
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:14   #122
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Ah Newt, you know that only you can answer this question. The only worthwhile piece of wisdom I've ever heard on this is: go with the smallest boat you can live with. It's always easy to go bigger (at least initially). Finding the smallest boat you can truly live with is the challenge.
Thanks Mike! I actually am trying to get into a Seawind and sell all my other boats. Haven't convinced the rest of the family...
Foolish- good on ya for living in a 40 footer with two (really three) girls. From raising my 3 boys and a girl, I would not tell them that they need separate bedrooms, when one starts camping out in the cockpit then its time. The time they spend talking to each other at night will keep them close when they grow up . I wish I was raised on a boat while cruising!
Jeff- one man's drivel is another's gold. If you don't think there is a philosophy behind sailing why read this thread at all? It may be that I am full of sh$t, but I find purpose and philosophy in most of what people do. I think people do very little out of frank necessity, and least people in our culture.
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:16   #123
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Yep, the actual sailing is only part of it.....
Yeah, but ...

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
Practice, practice, practice!
Work hard enough and you may make to the Olympics! Work hard enough and you may be able to make that cruise to the islands! Fix that broken thing-a-ma-jig and then you can get away from the dock!
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:27   #124
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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My point is that the "simply and cheaply" are one means to the end of sailing; in context, they are minor aspects of the conditions of a major goal and not a "philosophy" at all. It's like the philosophy of popping pop corn for movie goers.

I've sailed simply and cheaply at times in my life. I've also gone the very opposite direction at times. Those are very different things than a commitment to protect the earth. I don't dump garbage in the ocean just because it's legal when you get far enough out there. I consider it wrong everywhere. That's true whether I'm on a simple and cheap boat or a very complex and expensive one.

Those who argue that their commitment to simplicity is their contribution to a better earth need to give up their Dacron sails and lines - Dacron comes from petroleum, go back to cotton sails, cause cotton is a renewable resource and hemp for lines is too, etc. etc. Thoreau wouldn't use Dacron! How far do you plan to go?
Jim, you were writing while I was writing. I would say that all actions may be philosophical, Emmanuel Kant may have cleaned the yard every day to fulfill his philosophy.
The idea is to simplify, thus to lessen your impact on your planet and to have time for things that really matter. Little things do add up. Buddha stated that your small actions determined your Karma. Eventually you reap what you sow in little actions you do every day.
So how far am I going to go? Maybe I will start by sailing out of the slip and not using the axillary. I will use used sails instead of new ones. I don't know if Thoreau would or would not use Dacron, he did use modern tools of his time when living off the land. Living simply, consuming few resources, and keeping you family happy. Those are little things that are important. If they are drivel to you, that' OK, I can live with that.
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:29   #125
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Jim, the comments made are not meant as a challenge or an attack on you, or anyone else. Nor are they intended to be definitive statements on some absolute Right Way To Live. I gave up believing in absolutes a long time ago. So there's no need to feel threatened, and certainly no need to pound your virtual fist to insist your way is the only way. I'm simply sharing my thoughts as I stumble through life.

For me (stay calm now ... not judging you, not saying anything about you) sailing is most definitely not the end. Sailing is a means to an end. If you live and believe otherwise, that's just peachy. No problem. But please leave room for others who approach things a bit differently.
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:43   #126
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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[snip] If you don't think there is a philosophy behind sailing why read this thread at all? It may be that I am full of sh$t, but I find purpose and philosophy in most of what people do. I think people do very little out of frank necessity, and least people in our culture.
I have a dearly held philosophy behind my sailing. I started a new thread on this forrum last night, titled "Why I Sail" you might find interesting. Or maybe not. And I have had tightly focused purpose behind my commitment to simple and inexpensive outfitting on many occasions - but not all - as a means to my end of getting away from the dock.

I don't have a philosophical commitment to simplicity, simply because it doesn't always serve my philosophically based commitment to sailing.

I started sailing as a child. Been away from it at times, but it's largely been a constant all my life. In my adult life I've been able to make a substantial commitment to it. Sometimes it's been limited by circumstances to day sailing and weekend racing or overnight cruising on the Chesapeake or a week's vacation along the coast of Maine. Sometimes it's been on other people's boats, sometimes my own. Ocean racing - before I got too old for it - was great fun but sometimes extreme. Cruising has always been great fun. Deliveries for other sailors has sometimes been good, sometimes tough - I've learned the hard way to be right careful about taking on a delivery on a strange boat.

In all of it, my "zen of sailboat maintenance" has always been to make do with the equipment available, do the maintenance necessary to make sure the critical systems can get us through and fix up everything else there's time for, and get on to the the sailing. Things that can be attended under way can be left 'til we're away from the dock at times.

Outfitting and maintenance have no purpose per se. It is their purpose to enable the boat to sail in the manner necessary to the mission.
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:51   #127
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

Simplicity has a purpose other than minimizing the impact on the environment, in fact, I see that as a side effect. I like simplicity because it is less hassle, saves me time and effort, allows more time for sailing!
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:52   #128
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Jim, the comments made are not meant as a challenge or an attack on you, or anyone else. Nor are they intended to be definitive statements on some absolute Right Way To Live. I gave up believing in absolutes a long time ago. So there's no need to feel threatened, and certainly no need to pound your virtual fist to insist your way is the only way. I'm simply sharing my thoughts as I stumble through life.

For me (stay calm now ... not judging you, not saying anything about you) sailing is most definitely not the end. Sailing is a means to an end. If you live and believe otherwise, that's just peachy. No problem. But please leave room for others who approach things a bit differently.
If it seems I'm pounding my fist, I do apologize. And I don't think of any of this a threatening. On the other hand, I'm trying to point out that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and - while finding all this quite delightful - I think a good bit of what's been said is a bit overblown.

But thanks for your concern. I'll be okay.
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Old 03-04-2012, 13:55   #129
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Simplicity has a purpose other than minimizing the impact on the environment, in fact, I see that as a side effect. I like simplicity because it is less hassle, saves me time and effort, allows more time for sailing!
By George! He's Got It!

Now you have to take the last small step: a purpose is not the same thing as a philosophy. Then you're all the way home.
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Old 03-04-2012, 14:04   #130
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Simplicity has a purpose other than minimizing the impact on the environment, in fact, I see that as a side effect. I like simplicity because it is less hassle, saves me time and effort, allows more time for sailing!
And allows me to be lazy.
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Old 03-04-2012, 14:16   #131
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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Jim, you were writing while I was writing. I would say that all actions may be philosophical, Emmanuel Kant may have cleaned the yard every day to fulfill his philosophy.
The idea is to simplify, thus to lessen your impact on your planet and to have time for things that really matter. Little things do add up. Buddha stated that your small actions determined your Karma. Eventually you reap what you sow in little actions you do every day.
So how far am I going to go? Maybe I will start by sailing out of the slip and not using the axillary. I will use used sails instead of new ones. I don't know if Thoreau would or would not use Dacron, he did use modern tools of his time when living off the land. Living simply, consuming few resources, and keeping you family happy. Those are little things that are important. If they are drivel to you, that' OK, I can live with that.
I think Kant would say that his action - cleaning the yard - has a purpose of fulfilling his philosophy, but he would resist the notion that the action IS the philosophy. As I understand my hazy recollections of Kant, he would distinguish purpose from philosophy in just such a way.

To follow the Buddha is a difficult path; we cannot know the goodness in every action we take and we cannot know the longer consequences of every deed. The impact of your dacron sails and line on the planet fit here, don't you think? And the resin used to build your hull and deck came from petroleum, too. Seems to me you're having more impact on the planet than your philosophy suggests and you've consumed quite a few resources already. A new baby buggy here and a back pack there seem to me drops in the bucket.

I don't for a moment suggest you shouldn't have a glass-reinforced polymer hull and deck, dacron sails and running rigging, etc. You've made your choices and they are fine ones if you're going sailing. And they're important ones for keeping those kids safe. I'm all for it. I'm just sayin' your posts seem a little overdone. Just an opinion, no offense intended. Just something to think about.
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Old 03-04-2012, 14:17   #132
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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If it seems I'm pounding my fist, I do apologize. And I don't think of any of this a threatening. On the other hand, I'm trying to point out that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and - while finding all this quite delightful - I think a good bit of what's been said is a bit overblown.

But thanks for your concern. I'll be okay.
Agreed, there is a lot of 6-beer-talk going on here . But isn't that the joy of a life examined?

Or perhaps it's just about beer...
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Old 03-04-2012, 14:18   #133
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By George! He's Got It!

Now you have to take the last small step: a purpose is not the same thing as a philosophy. Then you're all the way home.
A bit of the "stench of zen" there...

You are presupposing that you have an answer and therefore anyone who agrees with you has, by association, taken a step along the path you have pre-designed.

There is no path. , The concept of simplicity doesn't belong to anyone, no one has "discovered" what it really means to then teach others, like many philosophies it is one of continual discovery and one, that like taoism, can't be "taught", as the very act of teaching implies that one person knows more about the subject than another...

...this topic, more so than any other on this forum is truly one that only benefits from discussion, not from one party teaching the oither party about how best to "be" this topic. That said as I transparently defy my own rules by obviously engaging in a "teaching" context...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LH44 Anne
Those who argue that their commitment to simplicity is their contribution to a better earth need to give up their Dacron sails and lines - Dacron comes from petroleum, go back to cotton sails, cause cotton is a renewable resource and hemp for lines is too, etc. etc. Thoreau wouldn't use Dacron! How far do you plan to go?
Exactly how far do you plan to go is exactly the point of your post then...

...the largest concern of the 19th century was food production as 80% or more of the population was devoted solely to food production. The greatest intellectuals of the time made that pedantic predictions that populations had reached their maximum as food production could not possibly be increased. And surprise petroleum was discovered as a tool to increase food production, fertiliser, steam engines, internal combustion, ad nauseous....

So, since you don't produce your own food are you violating the concept of simplicity?

Since you don't produce your own metal, or complicated plastic derivatives like nylon and polyester resin?

How about the immensely complicated processes like solar panels or the electronics involved in computers?

By not using any of the above or you more "simple" than others? Is it a contest?

Simplicity is immensely contextual, both societally and scientifically. It has been touched upon as i write this post that simplicity is not necessarily directly tied to environmentalsim but it is also never going to have a fixed definition as it is directly tied to the personal cultural experience of each practitioner. An individual who has spent their life in inland Kenya is going to have a vastly different perspective of simplicity from someone who grew up in the city in London who is looking for simplicity and in my unshisticated and simple opinion events of their vastly different approaches are equally valid. As are any on this forum who are acting conciously and trying to reduce and become more present regardless of their starting position

Edit: god, iPad is a killer for auto spelling, sorry if you can't understand this post it is either cause I an an idiot, iPad is a pain or a combination of both...
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Old 03-04-2012, 15:01   #134
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

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A bit of the "stench of zen" there...

You are presupposing that you have an answer and therefore anyone who agrees with you has, by association, taken a step along the path you have pre-designed.

There is no path. , The concept of simplicity doesn't belong to anyone, no one has "discovered" what it really means to then teach others, like many philosophies it is one of continual discovery and one, that like taoism, can't be "taught", as the very act of teaching implies that one person knows more about the subject than another...

...this topic, more so than any other on this forum is truly one that only benefits from discussion, not from one party teaching the oither party about how best to "be" this topic. That said as I transparently defy my own rules by obviously engaging in a "teaching" context...



Exactly how far do you plan to go is exactly the point of your post then...

...the largest concern of the 19th century was food production as 80% or more of the population was devoted solely to food production. The greatest intellectuals of the time made that pedantic predictions that populations had reached their maximum as food production could not possibly be increased. And surprise petroleum was discovered as a tool to increase food production, fertiliser, steam engines, internal combustion, ad nauseous....

So, since you don't produce your own food are you violating the concept of simplicity?

Since you don't produce your own metal, or complicated plastic derivatives like nylon and polyester resin?

How about the immensely complicated processes like solar panels or the electronics involved in computers?

By not using any of the above or you more "simple" than others? Is it a contest?

Simplicity is immensely contextual, both societally and scientifically. It has been touched upon as i write this post that simplicity is not necessarily directly tied to environmentalsim but it is also never going to have a fixed definition as it is directly tied to the personal cultural experience of each practitioner. An individual who has spent their life in inland Kenya is going to have a vastly different perspective of simplicity from someone who grew up in the city in London who is looking for simplicity and in my unshisticated and simple opinion events of their vastly different approaches are equally valid. As are any on this forum who are acting conciously and trying to reduce and become more present regardless or their starting position

Edit: god, iPad is a killer for auto spelling, sorry if you can't understand this post it is either cause I an an idiot, iPad is a pain or a combination of both...
Jeez! Don't lay all that on me, dude! My quote in your post was directed at the silliness that results from the creed of "simplicity" being celebrated by others. I'm just stirring the pot for those who see the path of the Buddha in "simplicity relativism."

And blaming the iPad is a cheap way out! Shame! ;-)
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Old 03-04-2012, 15:03   #135
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Re: The Philosophy behind Sailing Simply and cheaply

As to whether it's a toy or a tool for simplicity, I think,
The kayak is Justified; the rest is a matter of grace.
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