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Old 14-12-2015, 18:05   #121
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Seems a weak argument to not allow cats or tris.

Must be those over inflated maxi egos that cant stand competition.

I've lost interest in the wild oats show.

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They (The Committee) no longer publicise that as the excuse for not letting cats in the race. You won't see it being pushed last year or so far this year. And it's not surprising as it's no longer a legitamate claim.

The Race Committee is now just maintaining it's a mono hull race and that's it. Which is fair enough if your just a mono hull racer.

I'd like to see it opened to cats. I'd just like to see the 'push button' progress slowed and a return to muscle power and brains.
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Old 14-12-2015, 18:08   #122
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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+1

I don't bother watching the STH race anymore as there is no coverage of the fleet just the same boring maxis.

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Exactly! . That's my concern. These big maxi's, that can't be operated by human's alone, have taken the race away and even the broadcasting stops after two or three days.
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Old 14-12-2015, 18:08   #123
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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But, I'd personally like to see the S2H return to a 100% manual, non push button, vessels. I can see the trend continuing to include large sail boats that are drones if this keeps going. Or, no need to be sitting on deck in the cold, icy waters, but all down stairs in front of computer screens. or even worse, and going the way of the America's Cup.
A more cogent argument. At 60 years of age there are many aspects of life I would like to see revert back to previous times, but this is progress, and despite what some say here, it is inescapable based on any metric you like that the vast majority of the public are fully aware of the issues and support the changes.

Certainly, I see no problem with a cat section maybe starting a little later in the day. I though this was envisaged at one stage. Again it is unequivocal that the cats would significantly outperform the monos so what would be the point of them racing each other.
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Old 14-12-2015, 18:12   #124
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
IMO. For me, I'd like to get rid of all the 'push button' maxi's. Not just the one that runs it's engine 24/7. But any vessel that needs computer aided hydrolics to run sails and keels. And Wild Oats is not the only one.

I'd like to see it get back to the days of the 'human power' sail. I really don't care if they run an engine for purposes of their power consumption. But not if that power is needed to run keels, rudders and sails. And yes, I know full well that the big maxi's can't be operated under human hands alone. That's my point. I'd like to see the race getting back to basics.
+1

There is a certain purity in sailing that interests me.

I'm more interested in the human challenge of sail races.

I dont care what the rich have influenced the rules to be.

A sailboat, IMHO, is a boat that can be sailed by sail alone in all conditions.

If you have to run an engine to just sail then it aint a sailboat. Its a hybrid.

But at the end of the day I'm a cruiser not a racer.

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Old 14-12-2015, 18:52   #125
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
+1

There is a certain purity in sailing that interests me.

I'm more interested in the human challenge of sail races.

I dont care what the rich have influenced the rules to be.

A sailboat, IMHO, is a boat that can be sailed by sail alone in all conditions.

If you have to run an engine to just sail then it aint a sailboat. Its a hybrid.

But at the end of the day I'm a cruiser not a racer.

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Old 14-12-2015, 19:03   #126
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Well Polux can answer for himself, but he seems to me to have a very good grasp of the issues.
We'll have to disagree on that point.

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm
And with all the constant repeating on this thread of 'WO2 runs it's engines 24/7' I don't know how anyone can miss that point. IN fact, I've not seen anyone, including Polux dispute that.
Again, we'll have to disagree on that.

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm
But to me it seems to be a design choice that they chose to modify the vessel and run the engine instead 24/7. They didn't have to make that design choice and as I've pointed out, the other big Maxi's didn't follow suit.
They made the decision to have all the powered systems that required having the engine running. Which is the point. They could, like Commanche, use gorillas to grind and drive them. That's why WO11 gets a bit of stick and Commanche doesn't (for that).

Let me be clear here, I like both boats and I like the S2H. In fact, I'm trying to get a gig on a boat for next year. The boat I currently race on in the harbour isn't planning the trip. The owners of these beasts (Maxis) are entitled to do what they want and configure their boats how they like. I'd still be quite keen to sail on one for a while; I'm a curious kinda guy. I'm also entitled to think that it's a bit wrong to need the engine to put the sails up. And I've been the grinder on an old Volvo 60.

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm
And yes I too don't like the fact that you need to run an engine to raise the sails. But to me it's no different than running the sails up electrically or hydrolically. It's still the sails that make the boat run with the wind, it's not the engine. I too would like to see this gone which is where I certainly disagree with Polux view that the technology is a positive improvement.
In a cruising context, I agree with you. Just not in a racing context.
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Old 14-12-2015, 23:30   #127
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Well Polux can answer for himself, but he seems to me to have a very good grasp of the issues. And with all the constant repeating on this thread of 'WO2 runs it's engines 24/7' I don't know how anyone can miss that point. IN fact, I've not seen anyone, including Polux dispute that. But to me it seems to be a design choice that they chose to modify the vessel and run the engine instead 24/7. They didn't have to make that design choice and as I've pointed out, the other big Maxi's didn't follow suit.

And yes I too don't like the fact that you need to run an engine to raise the sails. But to me it's no different than running the sails up electrically or hydrolically. It's still the sails that make the boat run with the wind, it's not the engine. I too would like to see this gone which is where I certainly disagree with Polux view that the technology is a positive improvement.
Polux doesn't seem to see the difference between WOXI and other boats, which can sail without their engines running. He even copied and pasted an article which he claimed showed the ORMA 60 tris and Mod 70 tri's needed their engines to run their hydraulics, when the article he pasted showed that they in fact do not.
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Old 14-12-2015, 23:50   #128
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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A more cogent argument. At 60 years of age there are many aspects of life I would like to see revert back to previous times, but this is progress, and despite what some say here, it is inescapable based on any metric you like that the vast majority of the public are fully aware of the issues and support the changes.
A sailing boat that can't sail without a 150hp engine running is progress?

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
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Old 14-12-2015, 23:55   #129
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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A sailing boat that can't sail without a 150hp engine running is progress?

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
I'm with you on that point I don't see it as 'progress' either
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Old 15-12-2015, 00:01   #130
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

It seems the WSSRC can see the difference.


When Sean Langman set a new Sydney - Hobart record, he didn't break Wild Oat's record. Because Wild Oats didn't hold the SAILING record.


The record was up till then held by Mari Cha III, not Wild Oats.


Wild Oats' record is held under rule 21c for boats with powered sailing systems.


http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/powered-sailing-systems
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Old 15-12-2015, 00:15   #131
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
+1

There is a certain purity in sailing that interests me.

I'm more interested in the human challenge of sail races.

I dont care what the rich have influenced the rules to be.

A sailboat, IMHO, is a boat that can be sailed by sail alone in all conditions.

If you have to run an engine to just sail then it aint a sailboat. Its a hybrid.

But at the end of the day I'm a cruiser not a racer.

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Yes I like this sentiment, view
Having sailed since age 13, now 69
I would love to start behind the fleet and truck along in a 40 footer
Mind you Au is the most litigious country on earth(official now) so if you hit an entrant in the middle of the night , you would lose your shirt
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Old 15-12-2015, 01:00   #132
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Yes I like this sentiment, view
Having sailed since age 13, now 69
I would love to start behind the fleet and truck along in a 40 footer
Mind you Au is the most litigious country on earth(official now) so if you hit an entrant in the middle of the night , you would lose your shirt
Can you cite the comment about Australia bring the most litigious? I'm shocked by this?
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Old 15-12-2015, 04:11   #133
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

Every boat that races in the Sydney to Hobart race runs their engine, not all the time like the big boats do, but they get run a lot, and always when I'm off watch sleeping a meter from the engine box. Noisy, but at least it is warm and you have a chance to dry out. Diesel doesn't taste very nice and racing boats always seem to have it sloshing in the bilge, well maybe only the dodgy ones I've sailed, so don't leave your wet jacket anywhere that it can get covered, otherwise you will end up licking off your jacket as you try and cover your face from the wind cold and spray. Sailors don't really care about the engine, they are a part of every sailboat, we all go for the fun and time out with a crew, and a beer/scallop pie at the other end. The cruising division of th Hobart rac sounds fun, you are allowed to engage the prop...



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Old 15-12-2015, 04:39   #134
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Let's not get sidetracked about the additional power source being diesel or electric. If the main purpose of the power source is to make the boat go faster than using wind alone, then the vessel is no longer a "sail boat", but a power assited sail boat, IMO.
If the power source is used only for crew comforts, navigation and safety etc, then that is a different kettle of fish and the vessel remains a "sail boat", again IMO.
Welcome to the XXI century and to power assisted sailing

Contemporary tendencies in sailing in what regards cruising are much about that. That's why today boats with 60ft and over can and are sailed by a couple and that's why a 80 year old sailor is still able to sail a fast cruising boat alone.

That in racing is a good thing because it will develop and make reliable systems that later can be used in cruising.

Of course I am not talking about exaggerations like the Wild Oats case, that chose to run the engine full time instead of having a battery bank and I think that the number of crew inside a sailboat should be limited on the cases those systems are used and also that should exist a big bonus on rating regarding boats with really small crews.

From there to say that Wild Oats is a motorsailer there is a huge difference but I agree with your definition of power assisted sailboat that is something that all modern ocean sailing cruising and racing yachts over 50ft are.

For me this is the future:

Sailing boats that are completely independent from fossil energies (and that is a canting keel boat designed to circumnavigate). I am not talking about monohulls but about all types of sailboats.

And the ones that think that there are ocean racing multihulls that are able to do this while crossing an ocean are wrong. This type of things makes the news and the best I had heard till know regards multi-hulls is about 80% reliable on renewable energy sources and 20% on the engine.

For being completely free for fossil energy it is necessary to make that requirement a rule on a race. There was talks about making that on the Vendee Globe but the economic crisis killed it: The boats become more expensive, but I hope and I believe that will happen on a near future.

Anyway the canting keelers that race the Vendee Globe use already not much the engine for charging batteries: on a full circumnavigation they "waste" between 100 to 150L of diesel.
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Old 15-12-2015, 04:55   #135
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Re: Sydney To Hobart 2015-2016

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Polux doesn't seem to see the difference between WOXI and other boats, which can sail without their engines running. He even copied and pasted an article which he claimed showed the ORMA 60 tris and Mod 70 tri's needed their engines to run their hydraulics, when the article he pasted showed that they in fact do not.
Probably you did no translate well the French. The hydraulics on big multihulls can be run by "gorillas" at a pedestal or by mechanical powered systems, depending on the boat, the race rules and the size of the crew but that is not the only need of energy a multihull sailboat has.

Regarding the last professional raced transat with many monohulls and multihulls what I posted was that all boat on the race had to run the engine to charge batteries except a class 40 monohull race boat that had no diesel aboard and that had an electric engine only. The only ones that for safety reasons and by the race rules have to start with full diesel deposits are the big multihulls (Mod70):

"Que ce soit pour les Multi50 ou les MOD70, l’éolienne et le moteur thermique demeurent les deux sources d’énergie principales....Sur la majorité des bateaux au départ de la Transat Jacques Vabre, le moteur thermique est largement utilisé.

Les marins le font tourner entre 2 et 3 heures par 24 heures histoire de garder un niveau de batteries suffisant.

Si, seuls les MOD70, monotypes, sont dans l’obligation de remplir totalement leur réservoir de 70 litres, pour les IMOCA, les Class40 et les Multi50 chacun gère, fait son choix, d’où l’importance de multiplier les sources d’énergie. Mais tous sont d’avis qu’il ne serait pas raisonnable de quitter le port avec trop de peu de gasoil, sait on jamais… Damien Seguin, sur son Class40 Des pieds et des Mains est le seul à avoir opté pour le moteur 100% électrique alimenté par une pile au lithium et au phosphate. Un bateau dans l’air du temps…"


L'énergie à bord : une question d'équilibre | Transat Jacques Vabre 2015 : Le Havre - Itajai | Octobre 2015
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