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Old 25-07-2012, 00:39   #46
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
It's doubtful that banning copper will have any great effect on the water quality or the marine life that swims in it.
This bit of wisdom is based on what? Your expert opinion?
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Old 25-07-2012, 00:54   #47
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
I would expect a ban on copper bottom paints would in reality have very little effect on the copper content in the water.
Do the math:

A gallon of paint has (very conservatively) 14 pounds of copper
An average of 2 gallons is used to paint a boat
A boat is painted on average every 2 years
San Francisco Bay = 20,000 boats in slips

If every ounce of that copper were leached and scrubbed into the Bay, we're talking about 280,000 pounds of cuprous oxide every 2 years. But lets be conservative and say that only 70% of the copper comes out of the paint. That's still almost 100,000 pounds of copper per year being deposited directly into the marinas.
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Old 25-07-2012, 01:20   #48
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Why are so many marine organisms thriving in the Bay??? Is it because all that copper is and has been deposited in the Bay???? More and more boats using copper paint and the Bay gets healthier all the time. AFAIK, there isn't any proof that the copper in bottom paint has a significant negative effect or even if it's a significant source of the copper.
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Old 25-07-2012, 01:42   #49
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Why are so many marine organisms thriving in the Bay??? Is it because all that copper is and has been deposited in the Bay???? More and more boats using copper paint and the Bay gets healthier all the time. AFAIK, there isn't any proof that the copper in bottom paint has a significant negative effect or even if it's a significant source of the copper.
Faulty logic. Just because you can't see any detrimental effects that heavy metals like copper have on marine organisms, doesn't mean there aren't any detrimental effects on marine organisms. And I just proved to you that bottom paint is a significant source of copper. Pay attention please.
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Old 25-07-2012, 01:59   #50
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pirate Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

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Faulty logic. Just because you can't see any detrimental effects that heavy metals like copper have on marine organisms, doesn't mean there aren't any detrimental effects on marine organisms. And I just proved to you that bottom paint is a significant source of copper. Pay attention please.
So do you think that you are significant contributor to the copper lying on the bottom of marinas?

The logic says that sloughing paint, does so while under way, not while sitting in a marina, unless there is one hell of a current.

So inevitably, in the water bottom scrubbing, is likely the biggest contributor, so maybe we should produce a science on the values of not scrubbing.

Scrubbing is already illegal in WA. the other Washington.

Maybe the problem exists do to the lobby of the BS's of America.

Lloyd
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:42   #51
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

California water resource board is now saying copper from vehicle brake pads is a major problem with the copper going into the water

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_..._pollution.pdf

Solution would be to eliminate copper in brake pads, perhaps should use rocks. Rocks make dust though then we can talk about silicosis.

Can they ban people, if there were fewer people then fewer problems to create more bans.
State and emergency-police-military vehicles should be exempted.
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Old 25-07-2012, 07:57   #52
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Pay attention, FlyingCloud. Every single thing you posted is inaccurate:

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
So do you think that you are significant contributor to the copper lying on the bottom of marinas?
Studies have shown that in-water hull cleaning contributes about 5% of the copper that comes from anti fouling paint. The other 95% comes from passive leaching, which all copper-based anti fouling paints do 24/7/365, for the life of the paint.

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
The logic says that sloughing paint, does so while under way, not while sitting in a marina, unless there is one hell of a current.
You don't understand how anti fouling paints work. The copper biocide leaches out of the paint all the time, for as long as there is copper to be leached, whether the boat is moving or not. This true whether we are discussing hard, ablative or sloughing paints. So since most boats spend (conservatively) 99% of their lives sitting in a slip, almost all of that copper is being leached into marinas.

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
So inevitably, in the water bottom scrubbing, is likely the biggest contributor....
See above. You know what assumptions do, right?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
...so maybe we should produce a science on the values of not scrubbing.
Yes maybe we should. Maybe we should find out just how much additional fuel would be burned, how many additional carbon emissions would be produced and how much less you would enjoy boating if every single boat had to be used with a foul bottom.

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Scrubbing is already illegal in WA. the other Washington.
Umm... no it isn't. You can clean hard paints in Washington.

Hull Cleaning and Boat Washing | Clean Green Boating | Washington State Department of Ecology
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Old 25-07-2012, 09:51   #53
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

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Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
California water resource board is now saying copper from vehicle brake pads is a major problem with the copper going into the water

http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_..._pollution.pdf

Solution would be to eliminate copper in brake pads, perhaps should use rocks. Rocks make dust though then we can talk about silicosis.
California has banned copper in brake pads. So has Washington, with Oregon, New York and Rhode Island and maybe even the feds close behind.
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Old 25-07-2012, 11:09   #54
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Hum, I get 60,000 #/year. But then 80% of copper oxide is copper , the other ~20% is O2.. Plus I was using slightly different leach rates and diversity as not all slips have boats in them and some boats are commercial fisherman, not effected by the ban.

There are 6-12 million of gallons of sewage (Possibly much higher) that goes into the SF bay every winter too, during rainy season. Thats 50 million pounds of "stuff".

Copper bottom paint using your numbers is only 0.002 percent of the sewage issue.

There is no question that copper leaches into the water, but how much does it really effect marine life. Lord knows if it was that toxic, we would not need the boat bottoms cleaned.

Be nice to see real science to support the proposed ban.
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Old 25-07-2012, 11:27   #55
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Jeezus, so now your argument is that the toxin in anti fouling isn't toxic enough to be concerned about?

The raw sewage and copper loading are two separate issues. To infer that because more sewage enters the waterway every year (an assumption by you, BTW, and your 12 million gallons/year is erroneous, IMHO) than copper, copper doesn't need further regulation is another example of faulty reasoning.
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Old 25-07-2012, 11:32   #56
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Sometimes it's hard to clearly see what needs to be done and erring on the side of caution is well worthwhile, at least from the point of view of someone who believes the health of the world is more important then our convenience.

As an example, many bays that one time harboured healthy populations of herring fry have lost the species for some reason. Someone noticed that the herring roe that was deposited on wooden structures, such as docks, treated with creosote was not surviving. They experimented by wrapping the docks with mesh that prevented the herring from laying their eggs on them and forced them to find other places to deposit the eggs. Some of those bays are now hosting populations of herring. This is signficant because herring are a cornerstone population.

Large numbers of boats spend most of there time in locations that flush poorly and therefore become areas that can concentrate toxins. We didn't know what problems copper chromate were to cause and we didn't foresee the issue with creosote. I use a slowly leaching paint and am happy with it. Many boat owners feel the inconvenience is too great but perhaps a little sacrifice might head off both legislative solutions and problems down the road.
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Old 25-07-2012, 11:42   #57
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Again, to those arguing that copper is not a problem- that ship has sailed. The federal government has dertermined what it considers to be acceptable levels of copper for California's waterways and hundreds of those waterways exceed it. The state is required by federal law to bring those waterways into compliance. This is not an option. The only matter up for discussion is how compliance will be reached. It's going to happen, no matter how much bitching and moaning you do.
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Old 25-07-2012, 12:14   #58
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Sorry, agree both are problems. I get my sewage spill reports from various news reports. Gee Sausalito in the last two years has dumped 500k to 750k gallons every now and then. Richmond has had large million gallon spills as has larkspur, all within the last year or so.

The city of SF does when it rains hard. It how their system is designed...All their storm drains connect to the sanitary system, there is no seperate storm drain system in SF. Too costly to fix.

no question that copper has an adverse effect on some marine life. Sort of why its in the bottom paint. Anything else used would logically need to have an equally adverse effect in order to prevent growth on hulls..

But it is amazing how much marine life grows on hulls painted with copper and the marine life that's in abundance on the dock floats a few feet away from the boats.
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Old 25-07-2012, 12:21   #59
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

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Sorry, agree both are problems. I get my sewage spill reports from various news reports. Gee Sausalito in the last two years has dumped 500k to 750k gallons every now and then. Richmond has had large million gallon spills as has larkspur, all within the last year or so.

The city of SF does when it rains hard. It how their system is designed...All their storm drains connect to the sanitary system, there is no seperate storm drain system in SF. Too costly to fix.

no question that copper has an adverse effect on some marine life. Sort of why its in the bottom paint. Anything else used would logically need to have an equally adverse effect in order to prevent growth on hulls..

But it is amazing how much marine life grows on hulls painted with copper and the marine life that's in abundance on the dock floats a few feet away from the boats.
I wouldn't presume that because some sea life tolerates the copper that it means it's OK in the environment.
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Old 25-07-2012, 12:28   #60
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Re: State Sen. Kehoe Drops Anti Fouling Paint Bill

Here is a study with references.....http://www.chemet.com/file.asp?F=Cop...PDF&C=articles

Lots of good information, puts some things into perspective.
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