Sailors Are Cheap

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Therapy

How can a pound of diesel give up 2.6kg of CO2? Plus all the other stuff that comes away when burned.

I never have been able to figure that out. CO2 is pretty light I think so that would be a lot of CO2.

not a pound. a liter. One liter of diesel, on average, produces 2.6391 kgs of Carbon Dioxide when burned. While this is basic physics, it may seem counter-intutive because of your assumption that "CO2 is pretty light." Actually, gas tends to have weight. If you were to find a balance scale and put two identical balloons on each side, one of which was inflated, the other deflated, the inflated balloon would weigh measurably more than the deflated one (assuming here that you're inflating the balloon with air--or carbon dioxide--rather than helium.)

The weight of the carbon dioxide is not just from the carbon contained in the fuel that was burned. Remember that the formula calls for one part carbon to every two parts oxygen. Now, think about what they taught you about molecular weights back in high school. (Or consult a periodic table of the elements, if you still have one.)

It all adds up.

[Stillraining]

You don't eliminate mass...you just rearrange the way it exists.

[hellosailor]

"Go to bed after sunset "
That opens an interesting way to calculate carbon values. With an average daylight of 12 hours and an average need for 8 hours of sleep, that means 4 hours out of each day, 1/6th of a lifetime, will be lost to carbon reduction. In the US wereguild is typically calculated at 3.2 million $ over some 75 years of life. One sixth of that, $640k, divided by 75 years, and the cost of not buri\ning lights after sunset averages some $8533 per year or $23.37 per day. Roughly, six dollars per hour.
That's now the cost, or value, of having artificial daylight for one person. If you can keep a light bulb on for less--you're making money on the deal!

Offset away!

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Bash

not a pound. a liter. One liter of diesel, on average, produces 2.6391 kgs of Carbon Dioxide when burned.

The weight of the carbon dioxide is not just from the carbon contained in the fuel that was burned. Remember that the formula calls for one part carbon to every two parts oxygen. Now, think about what they taught you about molecular weights back in high school. (Or consult a periodic table of the elements, if you still have one.)

It all adds up.

A liter of diesel weighs "about a pound".

Tried to teach me.

That is why I have the problem I guess.

Diesel has carbon chains C-C-C-C-C, I guess. Burn it and each C gets two Os, I guess. Weigh it all and it weighs more I guess because O is added.

Carbon amount is the same?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by liberty16

It's not an all or nothing situation. Using solar panels is preferable to consuming fossil fuels. Sunlight and wind are free, renewable energies.

It might be preferable. But preferences are sort of like very arbitrary.

What I was trying to point at is the option of consuming less rater than producing more (even if we might claim to produce 'greener').

Look around at all all the waste and obesity - where would YOU place the problem - in consumption or in production?

Choices. Free will. Moderation.

b.

[Mariness]

The report goes on to indicate that installation of these cells can cost 600 to 3,140 kilograms of CO2 in sunny regions, while the number go up to 6,280 kilograms in cloudy regions.

OK forgive me if this is incredibly dense. But this makes no sense to me. Are they claiming that, after controlling for all production costs, it actually runs a higher CO2 debt just to install - based on the local weather? (So, if it's going to be overcast on Monday but sunny by Wednesday, should I make my appointment with the guy for Wednesday?)
I really don't get it. Does the installer leave his truck running all day under clouds, or what? The process should be the same to get it up on the roof and nailed down, shouldn't it?
One of you engineering types can maybe help me out

[hellosailor]

Originally Posted by Therapy

A liter of diesel weighs "about a pound".

Closer to two pounds. 1.874 pounds/liter actually.

Lies they taught you all your life: We don't run diesel engines, we don't run gasoline (Otto) engines, we run AIR engines. For a gasoline engine you are typically burning some 14 times more air than fuel, diesel on the same scale.

Of course for a proper and valid comparison, you'd also need to factor in the carbon footprint of making the engine and eventually disposing of it, and comparing that to the similar costs for the solar panels.

Some of the Chinese solar panel makers are disposing of the HIGHLY TOXIC residues by simply dumping them in ponds. Which the Chinese government is't very upset about, because it gives them a tremendous price advantage over EU and US panels.

One half of me says, let the Middle Kingdom reap what it has sown. They'll enjoy three-headed dragons.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Closer to two pounds. 1.874 pounds/liter actually.

Lies they taught you all your life: We don't run diesel engines, we don't run gasoline (Otto) engines, we run AIR engines. For a gasoline engine you are typically burning some 14 times more air than fuel, diesel on the same scale.

Of course for a proper and valid comparison, you'd also need to factor in the carbon footprint of making the engine and eventually disposing of it, and comparing that to the similar costs for the solar panels.

Some of the Chinese solar panel makers are disposing of the HIGHLY TOXIC residues by simply dumping them in ponds. Which the Chinese government is't very upset about, because it gives them a tremendous price advantage over EU and US panels.

One half of me says, let the Middle Kingdom reap what it has sown. They'll enjoy three-headed dragons.

Is that an imperial pound?

Whatever.

Anyway, I own a fiberglass boat.........with a solar panel............and a diesel.

I have big feet.

[Event_Horizon]

Originally Posted by Bash

not a pound. a liter. One liter of diesel, on average, produces 2.6391 kgs of Carbon Dioxide when burned. While this is basic physics, it may seem counter-intutive because of your assumption that "CO2 is pretty light." Actually, gas tends to have weight. If you were to find a balance scale and put two identical balloons on each side, one of which was inflated, the other deflated, the inflated balloon would weigh measurably more than the deflated one (assuming here that you're inflating the balloon with air--or carbon dioxide--rather than helium.)

The weight of the carbon dioxide is not just from the carbon contained in the fuel that was burned. Remember that the formula calls for one part carbon to every two parts oxygen. Now, think about what they taught you about molecular weights back in high school. (Or consult a periodic table of the elements, if you still have one.)

It all adds up.

What Bash is trying to say is that you burn about ~14.5 Kg of air for every 1kg of diesel. I didn't bother looking this up but I believe the weight of diesel is about 0.75 Kg/L so one liter of diesel burned will create 11.6-ish Kg of waste product. 2.6 Kg of that waste product is carbon dioxide.

[Stillraining]

7.4 lbs per gal...I cant do liters.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Diesel has carbon chains C-C-C-C-C, I guess. Burn it and each C gets two Os, I guess. Weigh it all and it weighs more I guess because O is added.

Carbon amount is the same?

OK - quick and rough. Diesel is made up of a mix of alkanes with (roughly) 8 to 20 carbon atoms. The formula is CnH2n+2 so octane (n=8) is C8H18 and hexdecane (n=16) is C16H34, etc.

Carbon atoms have a atomic mass of 12, Oxygen is 16 so if we take something like decane (C10H22) then those 10 carbons need 20 oxygens and the 22 hydrogens need 11 oxygens. So adding up the weights.

Decane = 10*12 + 22*1 = 144

10 CO2 molecules = 10 * ( 12 + 16 + 16 ) = 440
11 H2O molecules = 11 * ( 1 + 1 + 18 ) = 220

So we can see that "burning" one molecule of decane uses a great deal of oxygen and produces considerably more "weight" of CO2. The ratio is 440 / 144 = 3.05. So if diesel were pure decane (which it isn't) then burning 1kg of diesel would produce 3kg of CO2. Since diesel contains lighter alkanes in higher proportions to the heavier ones, the ratio is less than 3 nad may change from diesel to diesel depending on the exact mix.

[s/v Beth]

All this chemistry is fun, and I actually enjoyed it at one time. But just give me a sea breeze and a sail and I am happy. Solar panels will last 20 years- makes sense to buy them. But its summer out there- can we talk about this next fall? My boat needs me

[senormechanico]

Don't forget that all this hand wringing over CO2 makes plants happy.
Maybe the rainforests will come back and veggies will be so cheap and plentiful they will sprout by the roadsides.

[Therapy]

Mintyspilot,
Thanks.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by mintyspilot

Decane = 10*12 + 22*1 = 144

10 CO2 molecules = 10 * ( 12 + 16 + 16 ) = 440
11 H2O molecules = 11 * ( 1 + 1 + 18 ) = 220
.

Thank you. I was wondering if we were surrounded by idiots.



Now if you could determain the chemical reaction to ensure a great sail tomorrow....




Mark