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**hpeer** · 02-07-2018, 18:02

Boatman,
I think you nailed it. I’ve come to this same conclusion. Our boat is NOT gonna sail close to the wind. But our HOME moves around pretty good. My Wife appreciates my change in attitude and I appreciate her company.

In the last 18 months we have covered 7,000 miles, mostly motor assisted. This with a lady who at one time could not walk a dock without being seasick. Ours is not a Fisher but is a 40,000 lb steel cutter with 6-1/2’ draft. Old school overhangs. While on the hook our rolling is half way between a cat and a production boat of similar size. We sail about one day in five, the rest of the time we really want a stable environment.

**Dockhead** · 03-07-2018, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomm225

Nice, but if your goal is to sail maybe a boat that is a bit narrower, with a deeper fin keel would be the way to go.

The question is do you want the engine noise or just the sound of the water and wind as you sail to your destination

Of course. We all love to sail and we all prefer the magical feeling and sound of sailing with no motor on, but it is not realistic for 90% or more of cruising boats to go upwind for long distances, nor is it realistic to sit in port before every passage and wait for the wind to come around so that we've got a beam reach to the next destination.

I am a really good person to tell about this because for four years in a row, I moved my boat from the South Coast of England 1500 miles to the Eastern Gulf of Finland, and back against the prevailing winds.

The first year was so hard that I spent a ton of money the next winter having carbon laminate sails made, re-rigging for a specialized upwind sail (blade jib, which I adore), reducing windage to the minimum, etc.

I don't regret doing it! But the result was only an incremental improvement in the practical ability to get long distances upwind. My boat is anyway pretty decent upwind, with a bulb keel, pretty light, and with a 47' waterline, and now she's definitely among the better cruising boats, but it's still just not realistic or worthwhile to sail to a long distance destination dead upwind or nearly so unless the conditions are perfect -- glassy smooth seas and 10 or 15 knots of wind, say, and plenty of room to tack and work the wind shifts.

That's the difference between long distance cruising and sailing around the bay on a small boat just for the pleasure of sailing.

So in my opinion cruising boats which aren't well motorized are a fundamentally bad idea. After doing more long distance cruising the last 9 years, I would never want another underpowered boat no matter how well it sails.

And I think it's a very small sacrifice to give up what is in probably the majority of cases purely symbolic upwind ability in order to give the boat really good motoring ability. So although it doesn't sail nearly as well as I like my boats to sail, I would take that Fisher in a heartbeat over most AWB's sold today. There are just not that many cases where people realistically sail, and that Fisher couldn't. The Fisher will sail perfectly well in those conditions which we love most anyway -- a nice reach, close, beam, or broad. And it will be great in heavy weather with that ketch rig -- jib and jigger or whatever combination suits the conditions, and none of the sails is so big as to present the slightest challenge.

It is a very, very intelligent formula for a cruising boat, and I'm surprised so few boats of this formula are sold. AFAIK, only Fisher and Nauticat are producing any numbers of real motor sailers of this size.

Wayne hoath · 03-07-2018, 08:57

+1 to everything dockhead said above. You won’t regret it.

**Dockhead** · 03-07-2018, 09:31

Continuing the thought, although it's a bit of a drift from the original topic --

There isn't really any reason why a boat can't both sail well AND be well motorized. Classical motor sailers have motoring ability because of larger motors and tankage, but the rest of the formula -- heavy, long or longish keel, barn door rudder -- is aimed at seaworthiness and strength. These design choices are made just because the designer could -- he had the motor for going upwind or for light winds.

But you can get those properties a different way - with SIZE. A larger boat will automatically be stronger and more seaworthy, and beyond a certain size, it becomes fairly easy to combing excellent sailing qualities with great strength and seaworthiness. It will cost you, of course, in money.

And it is surely not an accident that most boats over 50' and definitely all or nearly all cruising boats over 60' are motorized like motor sailers and are used that way. Good example is the Hallberg Rassy 64, with 300hp and two tonnes of diesel fuel tankage, yet the boat has a bulb keel and spade rudder.

My own dream boat will combine excellent sailing properties with the ability to motor upwind and for long distances when necessary. I will need to earn some money before that dream can become reality . . .

thomm225 · 03-07-2018, 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Try one sometime.. you may be surprised.
Remember.. they are built to be sailed in rigorous seas North of 50degrees where an engine can sometimes be a blessing even/especially when its windy.
And lets face it.. long distance cruising is a lot different than hacking round the Chesapeake.. your boat is your home and priorities change and comfortable living and storage space becomes more important than leaning on your ear on a weekender.
But hey.. each to their own judgements from their individual experiences.

Yeah, I actually love all sailboats, but if I had a choice at this time, it would be a Pretorien 35. (or something similar)

I'm taking it a step at a time as far as long distance cruising. I won't be one of those that just goes because the adjustment to that very slow lifestyle would be a tough one. I have trouble adjusting now to 3-4 days away from this rat race here with it's 6 mile traffic backups that I avoid but hear about most days.

And as far as hacking around, I've hacked around in North Carolina also from Cape Lookout south to Swanboro. I came in Swanboro/Bogue Inlet one time and it was quite rough for my 17'er but Beaufort Inlet damn near swallowed the whole boat a couple times. (in the 70's)

I did a bit more hacking around from Panama City, FL west to Biloxi, MS also a bit on the Mississippi and Tennessee Rivers

As far as motoring, many times on my return South, I have to "steam' all the way (20 miles) across with my 5hp outboard because I'm not waiting around for the wind if it ain't there by late Sunday am

On the bay though, it seem like it's either blowin' like hell with big waves or barely blowin' at all

thomm225 · 03-07-2018, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Of course. We all love to sail and we all prefer the magical feeling and sound of sailing with no motor on, but it is not realistic for 90% or more of cruising boats to go upwind for long distances.

Yeah, cruisers, even in the bay, are easy to identify for someone that used to race and has spend lots of time on the water sailing

Many times they will stay in the main channel and very rarely sail upwind which is why I was quite pleasantly surprised a couple weeks back when I found myself in the middle of the Annapolis to Bermuda Race. (which I didn't know had started the previous day at 1330 in Annapolis)

I noticed one of the racers when I sailed off my anchorage barely missing running aground at around 8 am, he was actually in 1st or 2nd place at the time.

He was sailing unlike most boats you see in that area of the bay. see related story:

Annapolis- Bermuda Race (Unique Experience)

So I sailed North from VA Beach/Norfolk on Friday. My outboard died (overheated) on the way out Little Creek, but I said the hell with it.

I'll have a problem trying to dock now or in a few days and I knew the wind was suppose to come up. (although it hadn't at this point early afternoon)

So after I crossed the shipping channel (Thimble Shoal Channel) just ahead of a ship, the wind picked up and I had the tide. My Bristol 27 at one point actually hit 7.8 knots in the deep channel near the anchored tankers close to Cape Charles.

Anyway, I sailed on up to maybe 10 miles or so North of Cape Charles (30 miles from where I started) where the land dips way in to the East. (near Smith Beach even with Eastville)

I sailed here because the wind was heavy SE and I found a nice calm spot west of the Eastern Shore, but with my luck during the night, the wind rotated to the SSW so I had bay waves knocking my boat around much of the night and got little sleep

So when I got up I carefully fixed coffee with my propane hot plate while the boat still pounded into the waves, but a least now the waves were head on and not on the beam.

After I got straight, I raised sail and sailed off my anchorage barely missing running aground as the wind was pushing me toward shore. Depth finder showed 1' under the keel as I made the turn.

So now I'm headed just North of West since my Bristol simply will not point. It's around 8 am or so.

A mile or so off after I get the autopilot hooked up and things get somewhat normal (decks are slippery etc) I get to look around and spot a sail. (blue hull/ maroon bottom seen when he got closer) His heading is different than most boats I see coming down the bay. (I didn't know there was a race happening!) He is headed to the spot where I was anchored which was maybe 200-300 yards off the shore

He carries his tack way too long and too close to shore for a cruiser (which is what I've been trying to learn to be after racing beach cats for 15 years, Florida Gulf Coast, beach cat racing heaven at least it was back in the day)

I can't really tell the boat type yet since he is a ways away so I'm thinking I wonder if I can point with this guy. I have position being west of him with a SSW wind. I know he's going fast but...….hey, I'm a racer guy or was

So I see he runs this tack way long, on the tracker for the race it shows he must have picked up some land effect breeze. I didn't know any of this at the time but when he tacked, I'm like. Nope, you can't point with that guy. I thought It might have been an old full keeler trying to get to Harbor Fest.

So now I'm sailing my Bristol (I love her lines) and see another boat with a black jib. He has a good line going as I'm trying to get SE to Kiptopeke where my son is meeting me with tools to repair the outboard. So I sail way west to line up with him then tack and as luck would have it there is a tanker coming up the bay and I'm going to cross too close so I tack back. This over 30 minutes or so.

There are 18 tankers anchored in this area. So after tacking twice to clear two moving tankers, I'm headed SE again but directly at another tanker at anchor so I have to sail off the wind a bit to avoid. I was so concerned with the tanker (he was blocking the wind and I didn't want the strong outgoing tide pushing me into him) that I never saw another race boat that crossed maybe 4 boat lengths in front of me. The boat was at least 40' plus.

So long story short (er), The first boat I saw was Tenacious which is a 44' sailboat funded by Congress for the Naval Academy.

https://www.usna.edu/Sailing/lectures/navy44.php

The one with the black jib that I thought I might follow his line may have been S/V Sly which is an XP44.

I'm not sure which boat crossed my bow (I was on starboard btw!) but it could have been Divide by Zero a Frers 45 (later I found out it wasn't. He was long gone by this time along with Sly and Tenacious)

Btw, the race started at 1330 On Friday from near Annapolis

Race Tracker.

Annapolis Bermuda Ocean Race Annapolis Bermuda Ocean Sailboat Race

**hpeer** · 03-07-2018, 12:36

Dock head,
IIRC Nauticat just went out of business.

**Dockhead** · 03-07-2018, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by hpeer

Dock head,
IIRC Nauticat just went out of business.

That's a shame. They made beautiful, stout boats, for getting where you are going in any kind of weather.

sailingquest · 03-07-2018, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Try one sometime.. you may be surprised.
Remember.. they are built to be sailed in rigorous seas North of 50degrees where an engine can sometimes be a blessing even/especially when its windy.
And lets face it.. long distance cruising is a lot different than hacking round the Chesapeake.. your boat is your home and priorities change and comfortable living and storage space becomes more important than leaning on your ear on a weekender.
But hey.. each to their own judgements from their individual experiences.

The boatman speaks truth

thomm225 · 04-07-2018, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoastieMcToasty

Hi there,
I currently work on power driven vessels but am interested in sailing. I've done a lot of research on different sailboats and really like Fisher 34's and 37's for their seaworthiness, durability, and pilothouse. I've also read that because of their keel they don't make good vessels for sailing upwind. Has anyone on here operated a Fisher yacht and know what they're like? I wanna be able to do long distance offshore sailing, and am just wondering if this is the vessel for me.

This is correct.

They definitely will not sail upwind well.

thomm225 · 04-07-2018, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingquest

The boatman speaks truth

Yes, but the OP asked if the boat could sail well upwind and the answer is definitely not.

Especially compared to another boat of similar length.

The Fisher is a barge but is tough. It's all about what you want out of your boat. If you didn't know any better, you might think it can point (sail upwind great) but you'd be mistaken kinda like a guy from Deale, Md that thinks he knows the Bay. Perfect description of a Fisher here.

Fisher 30-46.
GBR
Sturdy and slow motorsailers. Great for high latitude cruising

http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html

Example, this boat even though only 33' will totally outpoint a Fisher (plus out perform it) and it's recommended for offshore sailing

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1840

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBHmEo-ESGE

I just returned from sailing across the rather peaceful Chesapeake Bay where it meets the Atlantic Ocean. It was quite nice.

I had an Easterly wind 10-15 knots which brings in the ocean waves but going against the tide I cranked up the big 5 hp to 1/3rd and motor sailed which kept speed near 6 knots and more with my 19.75' lwl

A Deale, MD sailor on the Chesapeake is in a different world than those of us down here. When we sail, we are usually crossing 20 miles and where I grew up to cross was 30.

It's not like a "real" cruiser going up and down the ICW

Plus the bay is full of obstacles. It would be much easier sailing offshore especially at night than in the bay

**boatman61** · 04-07-2018, 15:02

Thomm.. Your missing the point in cruising.
Yes the Pretorian wil point 7 to 10 degrees higher than the Fisher thanks to its fin keel reducing leeway.. however in 2-3 metre plus seas which is not unusual conditions with 20kts of wind in open water the Fisher will plug comfortably on whereas the motion on the boat closer to the wind will be more violent and tiring on long legs like up the Portuguese coast.
Also.. laying off a few degrees reduces leeway and increases speed so on a long haul a Fisher may not be that far behind..
Swings and roundabouts.

thomm225 · 04-07-2018, 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Thomm.. Your missing the point in cruising.
Yes the Pretorian wil point 7 to 10 degrees higher than the Fisher thanks to its fin keel reducing leeway.. however in 2-3 metre plus seas which is not unusual conditions with 20kts of wind in open water the Fisher will plug comfortably on whereas the motion on the boat closer to the wind will be more violent and tiring on long legs like up the Portuguese coast.
Also.. laying off a few degrees reduces leeway and increases speed so on a long haul a Fisher may not be that far behind..
Swings and roundabouts.

Awesome! If on the Pretorian, I'd lay off (fall off) a bit and go.

The dude asked if the boat would point. It will not

Besides, if you are going to spend that much for a boat wouldn't you want to just sail it from time to time? I'd go with the Pretorian or Gladiateur ……. for a few more years anyway til I'm totally old and decrepit

It does have waterline though but so does the Pretorian.

I dealt with that, the lack of waterline, all the way across today with the autopilot going nuts (wind on the port stern quarter and gusting) which is why I cranked up the big ole 5hp outboard

**boatman61** · 04-07-2018, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoastieMcToasty

Hi there,
I currently work on power driven vessels but am interested in sailing. I've done a lot of research on different sailboats and really like Fisher 34's and 37's for their seaworthiness, durability, and pilothouse. I've also read that because of their keel they don't make good vessels for sailing upwind. Has anyone on here operated a Fisher yacht and know what they're like? I wanna be able to do long distance offshore sailing, and am just wondering if this is the vessel for me.

What he actually said.. and we have given two opinions..
A racers and a former long distance live aboard cruisers..