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Old 12-04-2014, 12:33   #121
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
recognizing that sometimes you can't have fully prepared for what happens.
vs.
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It is avoiding and preparing for the obvious ways to fail that separates the responsible from the clueless.
You've cancelled out whatever point you were trying to make. There are no obvious ways. You build your medical kit and hope for the best.
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:37   #122
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Salty Monky I think any further elaboration will only confuse you more. If you don't get it you don't get it. So I agree to disagree with your attitude whatever it is.
My attitude is that you can't prepare for everything. You do the best you can within your own means, experiences, time, and where you are going. You go lightly into the field and don't get bogged down in the dogma and pontification of others. Yout take what you can from them but move on. That isn't being careless. That's just being realistic.
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Old 12-04-2014, 14:27   #123
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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The definition of Mind boggling to me: I truly can't understand why any person containing even an once of common sense would do such a thing.

When planning to set off with two small children on a 3000 mile voyage
... why in God's name would they knowingly cut their fuel capacity in half... Why would a reasonable mother & father who claim to be sooo concerned about their kids.... choose to be less safe? I got the original date of the fuel tank reduction wrong, it took place a little over six months ago, but never the less.... he had more than six months to make a proper repair! Here's the link:
need a medal cutting tool recommendation

The Kaufmans are not the Pardeys.... I don't remember the Pardeys blogging about washing crappy diapers in the galley sink with cold water like the Kaufmans did. Salmonella is spread feces to mouth and can last on surfaces for months. Not the same thing at all. 'Nuff said.
Your outrage is noted, however a few points to consider.

1. SOME forms of Salmonella are spread through feces, it is called typhoid fever.
2. You (nor I) know what illness the baby had when Eric punched out.
3. Did Charlotte sterilize the sink after washing the diapers? (I don't know because she isn't present to present her side of the story.) If she did, the dirty diaper issue is moot.
4. Neither hot nor cold water will kill bacteria alone. You need 140 - 150 degrees F (60 - 65 C) to kill the salmonella bacteria, most hot water from heaters is 125 degrees F or less.
5. The amount of fuel they had on board had nothing to do with Eric's choice to abandon ship.

I am curious as to why the sink and not a bucket, perhaps an ergonomics issue?
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Old 12-04-2014, 14:44   #124
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Agree with Jedi here, and as a cruiser with kids, I think the primary lesson/contribution from the Rebel Heart blog is the whole family should be shaken down if possible. This means putting lots of miles under the keel as a family.

Better preparation of the family may have made it easier to initially identify the problem. For example, we know when the going gets rough my four year old will be sick for about six hours. He will throw up in a bucket and then start getting better. If we did not know how how he handles sea sickness we could not distinguish between a serious illness and sea sickness.

My wife knows she becomes irrational if she takes Dramamine. I know that if I pop a Dramamine I will become dangerously sleepy, take a two hour nap and then feel like a million bucks. I sleep easy because I know my wife is a studious, keen and experienced sailor who can handle the boat on her own in force six conditions.

But let's face it. We are never perfectly prepared. All cruising sailors take calculated risks. If we did not we would all be sitting at marina bars jawboning with other armchair sailors waiting for the perfect weather window.

Eric and Charlotte understood the risks. The risk of their child getting sick was low. The chances were in their favor they were going to have the most incredible experience of their lifetimes. Each of us has our own risk calculations, Eric and Charlotte were very unlucky.

Eric had a great and honorable dream, Charlotte loved him enough to be part of the dream, they went out there and did it. At the completion of the adventure the kids are safe and well - for that Eric and Charlotte should be applauded. They gave up everything for the health and well-being of their child. Bravo!!
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Old 12-04-2014, 14:47   #125
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

"5. The amount of fuel they had on board had nothing to do with Eric's choice to abandon ship."

It was a weight choice - fuel vs water. They took water me thinks. EDIT and remembers
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Old 12-04-2014, 15:37   #126
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

How much fuel did he have? Anyone know?
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Old 12-04-2014, 16:13   #127
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

It's not a question of how much fuel is onboard any vessel, or was on Rebel Heart for that matter. If one is setting out to cross an ocean in any boat, wouldn't a prudent skipper or captain want to carry as much fuel as possible within reason? To maybe have some in reserve? Maybe in case he needs to turn back, or the voyage takes longer than expected.

Extra fuel to run the engine in order to produce electric power to run the watermaker, radio, auto helm, navigation electronics. Seems like a good idea to me. Our boat holds 225 gallons of diesel, but I still carry two 5 gallon jerry cans of clean diesel, just in case I need to bypass the entire fuel system in a hurry for a restart during an emergency.

Looking up the specs, a Hans Christian 36 of a 1970's vintage had a fuel capacity of 50 gallons, which I believe was reduced on the rebel Heart.
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Old 12-04-2014, 16:17   #128
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

I don't know for sure, but I believe that after he cut out the corroded OEM tanks, he was only able to fit a 30gal tank back in and he planned to only use the engine to charge when necessary, going only as fast as the wind took him.
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Old 12-04-2014, 16:35   #129
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Actually atoll, I don't think the issue is specifically children, I don't see the issue in relation to children.

What I see, is a conflict between a dream. One that many of us have in this community a d the practicalities of sailing a boat over a large body of water with ones wife and child.

s/v Jedi made a very interesting point, it's a very rare couple that cross oceans. It's even rarer to then do it with very small children. So what lessons can be learned. For me ( note : me ) the ones are

(A) how skilled is my wife, can she sail the boat single handed. Really can she do this ? Or is it the typical cruising couple of a women following hers mans dream, face it we've seen it

(b) do I have a sea worthy boat, do I really , how many of us sail,, knowing in the back of our mind , we know there are nagging boat issues. ( often cause we haven't the money )

(C) how much experience do you need ,especially with small kids , how do you a a quite that experience without biting off more then you can chew ,


(D) do men in particular , sell the dream to unconvinced partners, evidence at most major ocean crossings would suggest they do

(F) perhaps we as men , being in the majority of sailors might look into our hearts and deal with the conflict of our dream and our family , can we compromise , should we compromise.

Kens issues with diapers etc are not the kernel, such issues are more to do with " preparedness " and experience. You said in your case you streamed them behind the boat , we washed clothes that that way as well. Why didn't. Charlotte , maybe she didn't know, so how do we ensure others " know "

That's it for me, kids on boats , no issue.

Dave


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This whole story about Rebel Heart has definitely made me think. For context, I have 2 young boys and a wife who loves me dearly. To the point that I could probably talk her into adopting my dream, casting off and sail the world. I will admit, the "go now" crowd have a very compelling and seductive story.

However, Nick on s/v Jedi has a brutally direct statement. .. Can our relationship handle ocean crossings? My heart has no doubt, but I would like to find a way to prove it to ourselves.

As for Dave's questions, and the reason for the quote. ..
A) I personally don't currently trust that my wife will be comfortable single handing. And she would agree. This is something I know we both need to work on fixing.

B ) Hard to find a balance here. Could mean you never leave the dock.

C ) Depends on the kids. Besides the fact that my kids are already growing like weeds and therefore by default fit my narrative, I like the notion of kids being able to read, and not needing 24x7 attention. This is the age my kids are entering right now, and their ability to take some (very limited) responsibility is awesome.

D) yes, I think we do. And we need to stop. For the wifes out there that object to this statement. .. Never stop reminding your husband how lucky he is to have found you..

E) Where did e go?

F ) Yup, see D)
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Old 12-04-2014, 16:46   #130
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Thanks monstad for a considered response. The search by the way for the missing ( E) begins at first light !

Dave


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Old 12-04-2014, 17:28   #131
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Eric,

Glad your family is safe and healthy. Everything else is just minutiae bullshit. Hope you find peace.

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Old 12-04-2014, 17:32   #132
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Thanks monstad for a considered response. The search by the way for the missing ( E) begins at first light !

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Searching for E........hiding meth on boats...What is this forum coming to

thanks for all the great posts over the last few days on this and the other thread dave
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Old 12-04-2014, 17:36   #133
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

"1. SOME forms of Salmonella are spread through feces, it is called typhoid fever.
2. You (nor I) know what illness the baby had when Eric punched out.
3. Did Charlotte sterilize the sink after washing the diapers? (I don't know because she isn't present to present her side of the story.) If she did, the dirty diaper issue is moot.
4. Neither hot nor cold water will kill bacteria alone. You need 140 - 150 degrees F (60 - 65 C) to kill the salmonella bacteria, most hot water from heaters is 125 degrees F or less.
5. The amount of fuel they had on board had nothing to do with Eric's choice to abandon ship.

I am curious as to why the sink and not a bucket, perhaps an ergonomics issue?

Just a brief reminder here, we do not know Charlotte's entire procedure. No one would write exactly how they dealt with diapers: it would take a 1000 word essay to do it completely. It would be terminally boring to both read and write. We don't know if she did use a bucket in the sink or not. We don't know if she sterilized the diaper liners. We don't know if she sterilized the sink, too.

We just don't know.

Sure, we can consider some of the genuine issues; we probably can't stop ourselves from doing so; and none of us suggest that there are no issues.

My personal preference is to wait a while and see if either Eric or Charlotte comes to post here with some of what they've learned. The idea is to wait long enough that perhaps we can help them and they can help us with perspective and their own ideas.

*

Thread drift, please ignore if you want:

Finally, I'm going to comment about an invisible dead elephant in the living room or saloon, if you prefer: there is a money bar in these discussions. You see it in the expression of disgust for comparing an 80 footer with Rebel Heart. You see it in recommendations for "all the new toys". IMO, it is a reality that lower bucks cruisers will never be as well equipped as Jedi, Kenomac, or Dockhead. Those with less disposable cash are in a different boat! [pun alert!] So, what's normal for them isn't for others. Asssumptions differ. ....It's part of life.

So those who are impecunious *should* be aware of their biases towards the wealthy, understand they have a different ground of being, and write with that in mind; and perhaps the wealthy *should* be making an effort to avoid appearing arrogant by how and what they write, as well. We're not talking Aristotle Onassis here, just comparative wealth and disposable income.

We have some Australian circumnavigator friends from a 38 ft. homebuilt steel yacht who invited the folks from a 96'ft gold plater steelie bought in New Zealand to a yachtie potluck on the beach. The man from the couple later explained to the owner that the guys in the smaller boats were intimidated by the size and opulence of the bigger boats. The owner would have to initiate interactions with the smaller boats, if he wanted it. As it happened, they were delighted to participate, but one never knows. It is a real issue, and I've never seen it discussed here. Perhaps a new thread.......

*


PS. Hang in there Rebel Heart. Be Well.

Ann
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Old 12-04-2014, 19:43   #134
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Finally, I'm going to comment about an invisible dead elephant in the living room or saloon, if you prefer: there is a money bar in these discussions. You see it in the expression of disgust for comparing an 80 footer with Rebel Heart. You see it in recommendations for "all the new toys". IMO, it is a reality that lower bucks cruisers will never be as well equipped as Jedi, Kenomac, or Dockhead. Those with less disposable cash are in a different boat! [pun alert!] So, what's normal for them isn't for others. Asssumptions differ. ....It's part of life.

So those who are impecunious *should* be aware of their biases towards the wealthy, understand they have a different ground of being, and write with that in mind; and perhaps the wealthy *should* be making an effort to avoid appearing arrogant by how and what they write, as well. We're not talking Aristotle Onassis here, just comparative wealth and disposable income.
Ann
Ann,

With all due respect, I don't see how any of this is relevant to the discussion. What should it matter, the kind of boat one has or how one chooses to spend money as it relates to cruising safety? All I suggested in my first post were nine items:

1. Don't leave with sick kids on medication
2. Have some prior offshore experience
3. Know how you and your spouse will handle stressful situations
4. Have some prior foul weather experience.
5. Know how to repair one's equipment and have the stuff onboard to do so when the time comes.
6. Bring jerry cans of extra fuel and water.
7. Take sea sick medication before you get sick, not.... 4 days later.
8. Purchase a genuine aluminum whisker pole... not scavenged bamboo.
9. Don't have a set timetable in order to meet unrealistic personal goals.

The total cost for jerry cans are about $10 each and the cost for a 5 gallon bucket to wash diapers in, rather than the galley sink... is about $5 at the Home Depot. Hardly enough to break the bank of most cruising couples. The rest of my suggestions relate to experience and common sense.

Ken Onassis
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:05   #135
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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"He deserved to die, if only to appease Darwin."
Ha!
Being a very recent sailor and boat owner (or is it boat-owned... , I would like to say that Rebel Heart's contribution for me was/is the honesty of their blog, and sharing, in a sense, their everyday life onboard. It was more than just photos of happy people holding drinks, which I love seeing, but felt a bit limited in scope. Their blog was among the first we found online last year, when we decided to buy a bigger boat and become more serious (not really "serious" per se, but it's late up here and my English is failing me) about sailing. I loved reading about their adventures big and small, about gear and tech and bowsprits and redoing cushions.

I'm one of those infamous spouses who initially had deep reservations about sailing. Didn't even want to *step* on that boat. Even on a very boring river in a very forgiving boat! Fear of the unknown I guess (which I have sadly passed on to our son...but we're currently trying hard to climb back out of that hole). I armed myself with information. We went to boat shows, took courses, read books and visited blogs. I found RH was pretty much the only one where I knew I wouldn't get their sugar-coated version of events: I'd get their experience, warts and all.

Also, someone up the chain mentioned how RH could help draw those who seek to go "off the grid". I think that's a very valid point! I personally never would have even thought about living on a boat until last year, when I realized how widespread it was, and how it wasn't really a new thing. How adventurous!

Cheers,

Nat
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