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Old 25-01-2015, 17:57   #946
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Training Wheels View Post
I thought this was supposed to be about boats?
Ok, fair enough. Here you have two of the best offers on the Dusseldorf boat Show in what regards good new production boats fit for Bluewater, a brand new Maxi 1200 well equipped and with a nice supplementary equipment pack for 170 000 euros and a Salona 38 for 131 000 euros with about the same equipment. I don't believe they will last, I mean the offers



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Old 25-01-2015, 18:31   #947
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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OK back to boats. Polux this sailor who is promoting Hunter makes a statement about the strength and durability of this boat offshore but as Jon has brought to your attention the rudder failed. I'm sure he was a good guy but his bias is so slanted its unreal, even the words he is using seem to have been prepared by the Hunter marketing dept. Don't you think these types of personal referrals are really over the top. Like Jon I would be real surprised if he didn't get a real large discount on his 49 to pay for those referrals. mind you i had similar thoughts about John Neale and H R.
Maybe so, but the rudder that failed was not on the boat that he used to circumnavigate. The Hunter 49 circumnavigated without any rudder problem. In fact he makes a pretty very good description about all that failed on that boat during the circumnavigation. It seems not much to me. The bigger problem had to do with the engine, not the boat. After the incident with the Hunter 466 he seemed not to have a big trust on the rudder to the point that he carried one has a spare but the fact is that he did not needed it. Does not seem biased to me. Read it, it is interesting.

http://www.bomarine.net/index.php/do...aart-2008.html
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Old 25-01-2015, 23:57   #948
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Not much of a cockpit in that Salona, only place for two :P
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Old 26-01-2015, 00:36   #949
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Maybe so, but the rudder that failed was not on the boat that he used to circumnavigate. The Hunter 49 circumnavigated without any rudder problem. In fact he makes a pretty very good description about all that failed on that boat during the circumnavigation. It seems not much to me. The bigger problem had to do with the engine, not the boat. After the incident with the Hunter 466 he seemed not to have a big trust on the rudder to the point that he carried one has a spare but the fact is that he did not needed it. Does not seem biased to me. Read it, it is interesting.

http://www.bomarine.net/index.php/do...aart-2008.html
I think you should have quit when in front... you had me almost convinced that 'Hunters(production boats) were fit for blue water'.

Now it would appear that maybe some are 'fit' but many aren't...... maybe this applies to all 'production' boats...?
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Old 26-01-2015, 00:39   #950
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Not much of a cockpit in that Salona, only place for two :P
Yup, as far as I am concerned any boat that needs people to hang their legs over the side like that is not fit for 'offshore' cruising use.....
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Old 26-01-2015, 00:46   #951
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I think you should have quit when in front... you had me almost convinced that 'Hunters(production boats) were fit for blue water'.

Now it would appear that maybe some are 'fit' but many aren't...... maybe this applies to all 'production' boats...?
Also leads one to wonder if this Hunter fair-haired boy's Huinter was really a straight off the production line vessel, or, they knowing what he was planning, one that was more carefully put together, perhaps with a better rudder post?

Obviously, I have no evidence to support this thought, but such things are not unknown in the biz world... I remember the "specially tuned" anchors that Rocna supplied anchor testers in their heyday of deceit.

Inquiring cynics want to know!

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Old 26-01-2015, 03:17   #952
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Maybe so, but the rudder that failed was not on the boat that he used to circumnavigate. The Hunter 49 circumnavigated without any rudder problem. In fact he makes a pretty very good description about all that failed on that boat during the circumnavigation. It seems not much to me. The bigger problem had to do with the engine, not the boat. After the incident with the Hunter 466 he seemed not to have a big trust on the rudder to the point that he carried one has a spare but the fact is that he did not needed it. Does not seem biased to me. Read it, it is interesting.

http://www.bomarine.net/index.php/do...aart-2008.html
!
Yes I know he CN in the 49 but he stated in your post that on his 466 "not a crack or a creak was heard" or words to that effect. Seems that he didn't consider the rudder breaking was a crack or creak but maybe it was a "thunk" and thats how Hunter and he can justify the little white lie,kinda funny but it just points out that when reading a lot of these types of stories to not take them as truth but remain a skeptic and remember hi quality and low price are not bed fellows no matter who writes the stories.
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Old 26-01-2015, 04:19   #953
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yes I know he CN in the 49 but he stated in your post that on his 466 "not a crack or a creak was heard" or words to that effect. Seems that he didn't consider the rudder breaking was a crack or creak but maybe it was a "thunk" and thats how Hunter and he can justify the little white lie,kinda funny but it just points out that when reading a lot of these types of stories to not take them as truth but remain a skeptic and remember hi quality and low price are not bed fellows no matter who writes the stories.
Yes, I agree. Not possible to have high quality at a low price. That guy that circumnavigated 3 times on different boats and had not any connections with Hunter puts it the right way saying that it is good quality for the price.

I don't even like Hunters (generally speaking) but it seems to me that, like the Beneteaus, all the bad things that are said on this forum about them are vastly exaggerated: If theHunter were so bad no way they could have circumnavigated without having major problems (the 49 and the two 34). Not only that, but all that I know that tried to circumnavigate (those three) had done so with major problems, including rudder problems. Not saying that some Hunters had not problems with the rudder, obviously some have, neither that even among mass production boats are the better to circumnavigate, only saying that they are much better then what some make want believe as well their offshore ability.
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Old 26-01-2015, 04:25   #954
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yup, as far as I am concerned any boat that needs people to hang their legs over the side like that is not fit for 'offshore' cruising use.....
Off course you never sailed the boat neither you know about you are talking about. Any boat and not only the Salona 38 will increase stability with people sitting on the rail. They don't have to be there but being there the heel is smaller with the same amount of sail and therefore the boat goes faster. That's why it used for racing.
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Old 26-01-2015, 04:38   #955
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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So, I guess that I will continue to question the value of all these licensing rules. Your opinion may differ...

Jim
Jim,



I do not believe that any statistics on the accident rate for those with certificates/licenses versus those without exist. But there are two things certification have going for them

1- Insurance companies here in DK do give a discount if you have a certificate - so at least they believe it has some value.

2- Taking courses means the sailor has learned (or at least been exposed to learning) the Colregs and day and night signals/lights. Certainly there are many (on this forum as well) who simply do not understand the concept of "stand on" and "give way".

Taking some courses (certification) would certainly help these person be less of a menace on the water. Day and night signals are really something everyone should know (but many do not). We also have some on this forum that f.eks. do not show the day signal for motorsailing (no one named - no one forgotten)

So certainly certification (or licensing) has value - not everyone has 30-40 years of sailing experience behind them (and those that do did not have that experience when they started).

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming regarding Production boats
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Old 26-01-2015, 04:47   #956
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yes, I agree. Not possible to have high quality at a low price. That guy that circumnavigated 3 times on different boats and had not any connections with Hunter puts it the right way saying that it is good quality for the price.

I don't even like Hunters (generally speaking) but it seems to me that, like the Beneteaus, all the bad things that are said on this forum about them are vastly exaggerated: If theHunter were so bad no way they could have circumnavigated without having major problems (the 49 and the two 34). Not only that, but all that I know that tried to circumnavigate (those three) had done so with major problems, including rudder problems. Not saying that some Hunters had not problems with the rudder, obviously some have, neither that even among mass production boats are the better to circumnavigate, only saying that they are much better then what some make want believe as well their offshore ability.

That's a very reasonable approach and I could not agree more!
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Old 26-01-2015, 04:53   #957
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Not much of a cockpit in that Salona, only place for two :P
Boats are what they are, some are better then others and there are different types for all tastes. Sure the Salona 38 is not a boat with a big beam like the Oceanis 38 and the beam is not all pulled back and has a smaller cockpit but one that will take 6 without problems and four very comfortably (I have test sailed that boat). It as the advantage of having a very narrow cockpit table with handholds, instead of the huge ones that we see on most cruising boats today. That table can also be taken away and stored, that is what I would do when sailing, if I had that boat.

If you look for the right view you can have a better idea here:

Salona Yachts

That is not a good picture and it will make Pinguino nervous since the boat here is being test sailed by Dean Barker as a racing boat (IBC version) with a full racing crew, but you can see that the three guys that are over the seat could also be on the seat.



The boat can also do good on top racing but obviously not with that specs and for that price. For a racing specs version (that will do as well cruising) you need more 70 000 euros or so, mostly for carbon spars, carbon/granite bulkheads, rod rigging, dinema everywhere, big draft torpedo keel with lead bulb, carbon wheels more carbon here and there, Hull in epoxy using vacuum infused technique, lighter material interior and so on. They call it IBC version. Even so a very good price for a really top sailing boat.
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Old 26-01-2015, 05:01   #958
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Jim,



I do not believe that any statistics on the accident rate for those with certificates/licenses versus those without exist. But there are two things certification have going for them

1- Insurance companies here in DK do give a discount if you have a certificate - so at least they believe it has some value.

2- Taking courses means the sailor has learned (or at least been exposed to learning) the Colregs and day and night signals/lights. Certainly there are many (on this forum as well) who simply do not understand the concept of "stand on" and "give way".

Taking some courses (certification) would certainly help these person be less of a menace on the water. Day and night signals are really something everyone should know (but many do not). We also have some on this forum that f.eks. do not show the day signal for motorsailing (no one named - no one forgotten)

So certainly certification (or licensing) has value - not everyone has 30-40 years of sailing experience behind them (and those that do did not have that experience when they started).

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming regarding Production boats

My personal opinion on these regulations is that in general they are not needed on sailboats and I really doubt whether they can show any benefit to the state other than more bureaucracy and higher taxes. Power boaters, which many first see like a car, wheel throttle and away we go probably could use extra training but sailors have such a steep learning curve just to be able to operate a sailboat that there is a different attitude in owning and operating a sailboat (notice I did not include charters) that seems to just encourage continual learning. I do want to say many power boaters share this same attitude but there are more idiots on average operating power boats than sailboats in my opinion.
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Old 26-01-2015, 05:46   #959
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Just to prevent some possible problems regarding insurance claims it is useful to know that Portugal, Spain Greece and USA don't recognize the ICC even if in most cases they kind of look the other way and don't raise problems to the one that have only that as a licence, but the same will not probably happen with an insurance company.

Regarding the ICC being a fraud... I took the exam in the 80's where the examiner came to my boat and we spent around 6hrs sailing with me coming alongside, picking up moorings and anchoring under power and sail.. sailed various course's with tacks and gybes and sail combo's... all the while the examiner sat in the cockpit firing questions on lights, nav marks, rules of the road etc.. should add I did the exam solo.. no crew..
Now someone says they just filled in a form for it.. well maybe today in Belgium but things must have changed since my time.. or the UK is tougher on its applicants..
As for it not being recognised in Portugal and Spain.. Bollocks..
It was good enough to get me my Spanish Licence which allows me to work anywhere in Spain.. the same applies to Portugal.. just gotta walk the legal tightrope and pay the right fees..
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Old 26-01-2015, 06:27   #960
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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If you look for the right view you can have a better idea
Where's your sense of humour
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