Help! Trying to get the wife in the game.....

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by robert

One of the main reasons western societies are so advanced compared to other parts of the world is the new role women are playing.

Lets look at the historical track record that lead us up to present day instead.

For the past 600 years we western men have been responsible for 95% of all the technological and medical advancements, the creators of civilizations, of the most advanced infrastructure, high-income, low-corruption, politically stable and peaceful countries in the world. We created that. During this time most women were at home working and nurturing and raising our offspring, the nuclear family is the corner stone of civilization, thus their job was vital, celebrated and respected. Unfortunately motherhood in the west today is being thrown upon and viewed as a trap and a prison for western women.

Women have only been out in the work force in any kind of numbers competing with us men in the west for a very short period of time, when it comes to more women graduating university that's something that has happened during recent years, and it has yet to contribute to any of the advancements in STEM fields that you speak of. In truth, most women do not seek out those fields in the first place they're simply not interested and will seek out jobs that are more aligned with their nurturing nature.

Originally Posted by robert

I'm looking forward to the day we have more women leaders in our governments, the world will be a lot better and safer place to live in.

Women in those positions of power has historically been as brutal as men, often times worse. You should ask yourself, what is it actually that women bring? Are you talking about women supposedly doing things differently? Well if women on that level end up acting just like men in the end then what's the point and benefit of having them in those potions of power to begin with? Where is the benefit of having them there when you don't get the female feminine nurturing perspective as a counterweight to the male one, you just end up with women copying male behaviour.

The point there was to bring to your attention that women do not bring a miracle, robert. They are not answer to your prayers.

Originally Posted by robert

Men's biological history has been to dominate, to create war to plunder and rape.

Not really, our biology is geared towards survival, but sure there's been low points and you can judge our sex on its lowest points in history just as you can judge Europe as a continent on its lowest points in history – rather than on its highest points – and when you do make sure to apply the same standard and approach to other continents, cultures and in turn onto the men of those continents and cultures, as well as look at where we are today. At the end of the day the good outweighs the bad.

I would say we western men have done a good job. Plundering, warring and raping doesn't define us anymore than leeching, scheming, lying and manipulation defines women.

Now that's not to say that the two sexes hasn't resorted to that kind of behaviour, but it isn't the norm it never has been.

Note.
It's very popular and politically correct to demonize men these days, especially white men.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by double u

the thing to do is not to speculate which boats to buy or which courses or bootcamps the lady in question tosend to, but to ask those that have or had successful on-board relationships (what's in a name...) & completed lengthy cruises with their spouses as to what they ascribe this success to. (in all modesty & while maybe not being able to put a finger on the real reason for the success of my cruising dreams I'd guess I'd be in the front row of the experts...outline here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2268064

double u, lovely tribute to your good lady!
Okay, I'm an old married lady with a little over 30 yrs. cruising history. What made it work?

** I was willing to let Jim be the leader, the skipper, and we worked out ways to make that work for this feminist. It was a process of verbal confrontation, negotiation and resolution, time and time again. Not necessarily heated, but necessary for maintenance of self esteem. Imo, relationships need work to keep healthy.

1) "everything is always negotiable", like Hudson said, so one feels free to talk about uncomfortable things, also, cultivating flexibility helps.

2) Committing to doing your very best to take care of and be helpful to each other, no matter what is happening. In the beginning, for us that meant that I had to be able to handle the boat on my own before we went on long passages, among other things.

3) we worked up towards our goals. Jim and I were both previously married, and were an "item" for about 10 yrs. before we got married. We raced and did day and weekend cruises in his 30 footer for about 4 yrs., and did one blue water passage in the Yankee 30, SF to HI, to see if we liked water sailing">blue water sailing. Then, Jim bought the first Insatiable, 36 ft.and we continued to race and short cruise. Then we left for 1 yr, [SF, Mexico, Fr Polynesia, HI, and SF] but didn't have our financial ducks lined up well enough: came back to the States, worked 1 year, and I sold my house for the cruising kitty. Somewhere in there we got married. We left the second time in March of '89. It is important for the lifestyle to be sustainable. We lived like starving graduate students far longer that most people would want to.

4) the issue of working up towards your goals is so important, it is why I'm often counseling people to get a trailer sailer, learn to sail, see if it's fun, before you set off cruising to see *whatever* for "as long as it is still fun. One of my personal struggles was with sea sickness, another was loss of income from working, I missed that external validation of being paid for my time.

5) Perhaps the most important thing of all is that Jim is a creative, competent mechanic, electrician, plumber, so that as well as being a physicist, he has some useful skills for keeping our boats going. I'm a gopher with some simple mechanical skills, so he bears 99.9% of the burden of keeping the systems all going. He does all the at sea cooking, and most of the at anchor, as well. I do the baking, as needed.


Rognvald, imo, is correct that the women who post on CF are atypical. We all have the nous to follow our own paths. In my case, it is as part of a couple, but I feel a warning should be issued: both of us are persevering, some might even say stubborn or set in our ways, both of us have worked a lot at our marriage and lifestyle. If you have the heart, the will and the skills, it can work for you. We have enjoyed it a whole lot.... We just met a married couple who each loves singlehanded ocean sailing. They each have a boat, and they sail long solo voyages with occasional rendezvous. That probably sounds like a version of hell to some, but they appear quite cheerful and content.

However, taking off without a foundation, again, imo, is much riskier, and we have seen some sad failures.

Finally, one thing that stops the cruising lifestyle is the arrival of grandchildren. You should be prepared for that to happen, it is really very common, the desire to be involved with them when they are small.



Ann

[weavis]

Thank you Ann for comprehensive analysis of what is involved.

As a family physician, I see dynamics at play in relationships all the time. I get hear a lot of the frustrations and disappointments of life from both the male and female perspective, and also watch as couples find different avenues to pursue, like religion, jobs hobbies and life directions. I observe how some pursue it alone because it does not fit into the family scenario, or the other person is antipathic to it.

In a long term relationship, the REALITY is that a mode of living is already in place. Usually shore based, involves a home, perhaps children, perhaps a goal in mind and a general direction for the future. Then the husband (usually) brings to table this whole new concept of life involving a small boat, shedding possessions, leaving the kids and grandkids and going off around the world somewhere.

There is a reason that very wealthy people buy huge motor yachts. It is to emulate cruise liners, attendants, stabilisers, 5 star dining and comfort all the way. TO the wife or girlfriend of the rich person, that is 'sailing'.

We offer a small platform that rocks and rolls and is compact and short on a lot of the amenities.

A lot of partners dont mind day sailing or even a week or so on the boat. However, and the question asked is HOW to get the wife interested in a life change.

There is a truism that I often reflect on. " A mans mind changed against his will, is a man of the same opinion still". This is applicable in life changes. Sometimes we do things to allow someone elses happiness, but is not what we really want or would have done from singular choice.

We marry whom we marry for the reasons at the time, and years later individually we reach changes in our personality or we find something that becomes important to us and obviously wish to share that passion with our nearest and dearest, and find that they dont share the same desire for whatever it is.

Its a lot to expect of someone given a lifetime together working in a certain direction.

If the relationship is a good one, and talking is part of the equation, then honesty from both sides will open the discussion and done in such a way that ultimatums are not placed anywhere. At this point, its just one of the team who is thinking of a life change, and that in itself requires delicacy and love and tact in talking about it. Other peoples happiness will depend on any decisions made, including the one that is presenting the concept.

I would estimate that statistically, the odds against a person leaving all that they know and are comfortable with, and children involved, is more than 80% against you. Some people have married the ideal partner who is yearning for a change and will join in any madcap adventures suggested, but they are few and far between.

In observing relationships in the clinic, I note several things that count in making huge decisions...

• Deep love
• Respect
• Trust
• Faith in each other

For a woman to be 'onboard' with the plan, she has to willingly cross from the dock to the deck, and continue to be part of the relationship in its new surroundings. She has to be sure that in this new situation, she is going to have the security of the relationship and a life worth living in this environment. New places to see, freedom from the 9-5 routine, being able to be close to her partner 24 hours a day, being able to LIVE her dreams as well, If children are onboard with the couple, she will need to feel that THEIR lives are enhanced by the lifestyle, affording them opportunities that cannot be obtained any other way.

Here is a video worth watching of two yotties sharing a life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lrYVlj6Hxg&t=575s

[double u]

" the nuclear family is the corner stone of civilization"
very good sir, very good! atomic or thermonuclear???

what I (& others) take umbrage at is that you obviously really are of the opinion to be smarter, more circumspect, etc. - simply better, than the woman in your life & therefore are her rightful superior that "gives her what she needs"! to me it looks as if the lady is very smart indeed to let her "partner" (some partner) have his delusions of superiority while being led by the nosering.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by double u

" the nuclear family is the corner stone of civilization"
very good sir, very good! atomic or thermonuclear???

what I (& others) take umbrage at is that you obviously really are of the opinion to be smarter, more circumspect, etc. - simply better, than the woman in your life & therefore are her rightful superior that "gives her what she needs"! to me it looks as if the lady is very smart indeed to let her "partner" (some partner) have his delusions of superiority while being led by the nosering.

I didn't read it like that. Don't agree completely with his opinion but he is entitled to it, didnt think it was presented rudely or from a being "'Im superior "perspective.....yes alot would disagree, but they don't need to be offended.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[robert sailor]

I may be wrong but I think WW2 is the stimulus that got so many women in the workforce and allowed them to excel at jobs normally done by men.
As to women in leadership, look at the women's March in Washington. ..600,000 women packed into tight spaces protesting...I can just imagine if those were men...there would be blood on the streets. Women just get along better and without a dose of testosterone they tend to find other methods to solve problems.
Ah and then there are men, this world has seen constant wars, never a break before the next one starts. Most over dominance where men tally up how many of the opposite team they can kill. We develop the most sophisticated weapons imaginable and whole industries are dependant on war.
We all see the world through different lenses my thoughts are that a real good relationship is a true partnership in every way. Of course each of us bring different strengths to the table but neither of us constantly takes a leadership role, it's a game of compromises with leadership passing back and forth depending on the tasks your both involved in.

[rognvald]

"As to women in leadership, look at the women's March in Washington. ..600,000 women packed into tight spaces protesting...I can just imagine if those were men...there would be blood on the streets. Women just get along better and without a dose of testosterone they tend to find other methods to solve problems." Robert Sailor


So, Robert, are you aware that "Right to Life" women were banned from attending the Women's March in Washington? Would you call that "women just get along better" or would you agree that women are not ideal creatures but are vulnerable to the same passions/prejudices as men? I don't see how the lack or presence of testosterone is a relevant factor. What "other methods(feminine)" did the women organizers use to make the march inclusive? Good luck and safe sailing.
P.S. I have tried to copy the news stories unsucessfully. Google: Women's march bans right to life women.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"As to women in leadership, look at the women's March in Washington. ..600,000 women packed into tight spaces protesting...I can just imagine if those were men...there would be blood on the streets. Women just get along better and without a dose of testosterone they tend to find other methods to solve problems." Robert Sailor


So, Robert, are you aware that "Right to Life" women were banned from attending the Women's March in Washington? Would you call that "women just get along better" or would you agree that women are not ideal creatures but are vulnerable to the same passions/prejudices as men? I don't see how the lack or presence of testosterone is a relevant factor. What "other methods(feminine)" did the women organizers use to make the march inclusive? Good luck and safe sailing.
P.S. I have tried to copy the news stories unsucessfully. Google: Women's march bans right to life women.

Sure I'm aware of that but I think most attended anyways. I'm not trying to make women into saints, as you say, like us they have their flaws however men have kept women very subservient over the years and it's still going on in many parts of the world. I'm not sure, maybe it's our superior physical strength, maybe religions that we wrote played a big role but whatever it was/is life as we used to know it is changing. Yes in some parts of the USA women still play the role of home keepers and husband looker afters and some are happy doing this but the more education women get the further from this role they stray. I'm not promoting the idea, I'm observing and for the most part I like what I see. In my life I had a traditional marriage and now a more modern one...I'm a much happier camper in the modern one, it's a lot more fun.

[JPA Cate]

Perhaps we could set aside, for the moment, women's struggles to have attained the vote, to gain equal pay for equal work, and the proper roles from males with regards to females.

The OP had a plan to introduce his wife to sailing, by integrating charters into a holiday abroad...

Whether he will be successful --with that method-- will probably play out here in real time shortly. Depending on a whole lot of outside circumstances, he may entice his wife to accompany him.

What I'd like to hear from Van Beek is what advice he'd give this man, what steps he might take (presupposing a committed relationship, which we actually don't know about at all)? what does he think a woman would need that he should supply? Please be specific, because when we write in generalities is when feminists (male and female) get drawn into political discussion. This forum is for cruising related comments, and it is wise to make it obvious there is a connection to cruising, not mere polemics.

Ann

Ann

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Women have really only got started, wait awhile. Right now in most of our universities there are more women than men graduating in law and medicine. These days women on average are out working men, they work all day and then look after most of the home chores. One of the main reasons western societies are so advanced compared to other parts of the world is the new role women are playing. While areas like the middle east do just fine today with their huge oil revenues, if and when that's taken away the societies will be going nowhere because they only have 50% of their horsepower, the other 50% is locked up at home afraid to even go downtown without the dominant male. I won't deny that many if not most women have strong desires to have a baby but these days the cat is out of the bag, keeping them barefoot and pregnant is simply no longer an option. Did you notice that the women marching against the new usa president turned out close to twice as many as the inaugural event. Times have changed and there's lots more to come, I'm looking forward to the day we have more women leaders in our governments, the world will be a lot better and safer place to live in.

WHEW Robt-- take something quick

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Perhaps we could set aside, for the moment, women's struggles to have attained the vote, to gain equal pay for equal work, and the proper roles from males with regards to females.

The OP had a plan to introduce his wife to sailing, by integrating charters into a holiday abroad...

Whether he will be successful --with that method-- will probably play out here in real time shortly. Depending on a whole lot of outside circumstances, he may entice his wife to accompany him.

What I'd like to hear from Van Beek is what advice he'd give this man, what steps he might take (presupposing a committed relationship, which we actually don't know about at all)? what does he think a woman would need that he should supply? Please be specific, because when we write in generalities is when feminists (male and female) get drawn into political discussion. This forum is for cruising related comments, and it is wise to make it obvious there is a connection to cruising, not mere polemics.

Ann

Ann

Women should be made to pass a logic test before being allowed to vote!! My wife votes for politicians based on their similarity in looks to Hollywood actors!

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by geoleo

Women should be made to pass a logic test before being allowed to vote!! My wife votes for politicians based on their similarity in looks to Hollywood actors!

Politics and logic is an oxymoron, lol.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

Lets look at the historical track record that lead us up to present day instead.

For the past 600 years we western men have been responsible for 95% of all the technological and medical advancements, the creators of civilizations, of the most advanced infrastructure, high-income, low-corruption, politically stable and peaceful countries in the world. We created that. During this time most women were at home working and nurturing and raising our offspring, the nuclear family is the corner stone of civilization, thus their job was vital, celebrated and respected. Unfortunately motherhood in the west today is being thrown upon and viewed as a trap and a prison for western women.

Women have only been out in the work force in any kind of numbers competing with us men in the west for a very short period of time, when it comes to more women graduating university that's something that has happened during recent years, and it has yet to contribute to any of the advancements in STEM fields that you speak of. In truth, most women do not seek out those fields in the first place they're simply not interested and will seek out jobs that are more aligned with their nurturing nature.


Women in those positions of power has historically been as brutal as men, often times worse. You should ask yourself, what is it actually that women bring? Are you talking about women supposedly doing things differently? Well if women on that level end up acting just like men in the end then what's the point and benefit of having them in those potions of power to begin with? Where is the benefit of having them there when you don't get the female feminine nurturing perspective as a counterweight to the male one, you just end up with women copying male behaviour.

The point there was to bring to your attention that women do not bring a miracle, robert. They are not answer to your prayers.



Not really, our biology is geared towards survival, but sure there's been low points and you can judge our sex on its lowest points in history just as you can judge Europe as a continent on its lowest points in history – rather than on its highest points – and when you do make sure to apply the same standard and approach to other continents, cultures and in turn onto the men of those continents and cultures, as well as look at where we are today. At the end of the day the good outweighs the bad.

I would say we western men have done a good job. Plundering, warring and raping doesn't define us anymore than leeching, scheming, lying and manipulation defines women.

Now that's not to say that the two sexes hasn't resorted to that kind of behaviour, but it isn't the norm it never has been.

Note.
It's very popular and politically correct to demonize men these days, especially white men.

Wonderful comments Capt Van der Beek

[chris mac]

Originally Posted by geoleo

Women should be made to pass a logic test before being allowed to vote!! My wife votes for politicians based on their similarity in looks to Hollywood actors!

That's as effective as voting based on political promises. They are both just for show;-)

[geoleo]

My dear wife --along with millions of others, including many men--also believes film actors are her imaginary 'friends'. otherwise she is highly intelligent.