Cats vs Mono..why a mono

[Cottontop]

These threads always remind me of a single guy, and a guy married with three kids, arguing about whether a Corvette or a mini-van is a better car. Just seems silly.

There are people out on sailboats because they love the psychic wonderfulness of sailing. They tend to prefer monohulls.

There are people out on sailboats because it is a special way to travel. They tend to prefer cats.

Arguing about which is "better" just seems silly.

Nobody is shouting from the rooftops that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. People shout from the rooftops when they are uncertain about something.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Nobody is shouting from the rooftops that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. People shout from the rooftops when they are uncertain about something.

You dont live in England.......... we tend to shout that if the forecast changes.

[paxfish]

Actually, given the topic, I thought it was a pretty civil discussion!

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by paxfish

Actually, given the topic, I thought it was a pretty civil discussion!

Agree. Didn't mean to sound critical. The thread has more than 100 replies and 7,000 views, so obviously it is of interest to a lot of people, including me.

[cheoah]

Yes this is a useful discussion. The first hand accounts that illustrate the limitations of cats are informative. I have no experience with cats so I learned something.

Each type of boat has pros and cons, we all know that. Helpful to learn what those are for making an informed decision.

Overall I feel like cats are more expensive. I would own one someday theoretically but practical stuff tempers my interest. Even though I anchor nearly 100% of the time, dockage and haul out are two potential hassles with a cat. I realize they aren't show stoppers but let's face it, it's an issue. Conversely, I think you can careen a cat easily?

I wonder about durability. My pacific seacraft is built pretty well, and with luck it will last for decades more. It's almost thirty years old now and structurally it's like it was when commissioned. I don't think there is any measurable fatigue in the hull.

Cats by their design, seem to be exposed to much more stress over their sprawling lines. What does a 30 year old Fontaine P. Look like? Or do we know? If it has been sailed much I'd think it would be subjected to some destructive loads. No reason to forgo, given the benefits of all that real estate, but I'd want to know about the durability. Seems like resale is good, are there 30 year old examples out there?

Upwind performance isn't important to some cruisers. It is for me.

Having two engines is great. But that alone doubles your cost for maintenance. I'm sure some would argue it's not quite 2x cost, but for the average cruiser it would be.

The fact that there aren't many good, affordable choices in the 35' range doesn't help. Seems like you gotta have a couple hundred grand to get in the cat game. Meh. I ain't spending that kind of money.


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[StuM]

Originally Posted by cheoah

I wonder about durability. My pacific seacraft is built pretty well, and with luck it will last for decades more. It's almost thirty years old now and structurally it's like it was when commissioned. I don't think there is any measurable fatigue in the hull.

Cats by their design, seem to be exposed to much more stress over their sprawling lines. What does a 30 year old Fontaine P. Look like? Or do we know? If it has been sailed much I'd think it would be subjected to some destructive loads. No reason to forgo, given the benefits of all that real estate, but I'd want to know about the durability. Seems like resale is good, are there 30 year old examples out there?

Upwind performance isn't important to some cruisers. It is for me.

Having two engines is great. But that alone doubles your cost for maintenance. I'm sure some would argue it's not quite 2x cost, but for the average cruiser it would be.

There are not that many 30 + year old cruising cats around because there were not many cruising cats being built 30+ years ago.
FP 30 year old? They started building their first cruising cat the Lousiaine only 32 year ago. They currently go for around $80,000

1950 Louisiane (Sail) Boats For Sale

But there are still quite a few Prouts, Catalacs etc that age going around.
To give you an idea of a few others of the same era:

1950 prout (Sail) Boats For Sale

1950 catalac (Sail) Boats For Sale


And no, it's not twice the cost for two engines, I'd guess that the average/majority of cruising cats run on one engine most of the time.

[monte]

Don't believe everything you read cheoah. Upwind performance is on a par with similar monos and berthing costs are about the same if you consider you're paying /m2 or for similar accommodation size. Alternately you can just believe everything you read

[StuM]

Or an FP that's only 27 years for over $200,000:

1988 Fountaine Pajot Casamance 46 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

[Steadman Uhlich]

I found several of the previous comments interesting as they described the perceived "jerkiness" of the "motion" of the cats when underway and compared that (some) to their experience on monos.

I am neutral on "Cats vs. Monos" and would own and enjoy either (or both if possible) and consider them good choices, depending upon what one wants from the boat.

I do have a neutral question for the Cat owners out there.
I hope you will answer it without seeing this as a poke, jab, or think I have a hidden agenda. I just think you folks might know the answer to a question regarding the cats, and since this thread is describing some of the attributes or differences, here it goes:

"What causes the perceived "jerkiness" of the cat while it is sailing?"

Is it because one hull's bow enters a wave before the other hull, causing some temporary slowing on that one hull?

Is it because of some kind of lift of one hull while the other is lower (on a reach?) so there is some kind of rocking of the boat as one hull is lifted before the other hull?

Please describe it in terms that a non-cat owner or newbie to cats would understand.

Thank you for any serious answers to this sincere question.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I found several of the previous comments interesting as they described the perceived "jerkiness" of the "motion" of the cats when underway and compared that (some) to their experience on monos.

I am neutral on "Cats vs. Monos" and would own and enjoy either (or both if possible) and consider them good choices, depending upon what one wants from the boat.

I do have a neutral question for the Cat owners out there.
I hope you will answer it without seeing this as a poke, jab, or think I have a hidden agenda. I just think you folks might know the answer to a question regarding the cats, and since this thread is describing some of the attributes or differences, here it goes:

"What causes the perceived "jerkiness" of the cat while it is sailing?"

Is it because one hull's bow enters a wave before the other hull, causing some temporary slowing on that one hull?

Is it because of some kind of lift of one hull while the other is lower (on a reach?) so there is some kind of rocking of the boat as one hull is lifted before the other hull?

Please describe it in terms that a non-cat owner or newbie to cats would understand.

Thank you for any serious answers to this sincere question.

Might be easier for you to go on a Cat and see whether the comment/s fit your perception of the motion.
I ride on both and dont see it as a jerkiness......... I see it as different to a mono.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by weavis

Might be easier for you to go on a Cat and see whether the comment/s fit your perception of the motion.
I ride on both and dont see it as a jerkiness......... I see it as different to a mono.

Sure, I would like to do that and make my own observations.

Last time I was on a 18 foot cat, I was hiked out on a trapeze as we flew a hull high. Fast is fun!

But, I don't have access to a big loaded cruising cat here with waves.

Correct me if I am wrong on this. But I am curious.

Good descriptions can help understanding. And I am sincerely interested in understanding.

[monte]

Over sheeting is probably the main reason for any jerking effect. The sails need to breathe and over sheeting will block the airflow and cause a cat to crab sideways instead of foreword or alternate between the two. I would guess anyone who has felt that effect was a victim of an inexperienced skipper. Obviously cats don't heel much so while a mono might lean over to a gust, the clues to reduce sail, ease sheets, or turn up into a gust aren't as obvious on a cat. Any cat sailor with some experience would realise there's something wrong with the trim if any surging/jerking motion is present.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I found several of the previous comments interesting as they described the perceived "jerkiness" of the "motion" of the cats when underway and compared that (some) to their experience on monos.

I am neutral on "Cats vs. Monos" and would own and enjoy either (or both if possible) and consider them good choices, depending upon what one wants from the boat.

I do have a neutral question for the Cat owners out there.
I hope you will answer it without seeing this as a poke, jab, or think I have a hidden agenda. I just think you folks might know the answer to a question regarding the cats, and since this thread is describing some of the attributes or differences, here it goes:

"What causes the perceived "jerkiness" of the cat while it is sailing?"

Is it because one hull's bow enters a wave before the other hull, causing some temporary slowing on that one hull?

Is it because of some kind of lift of one hull while the other is lower (on a reach?) so there is some kind of rocking of the boat as one hull is lifted before the other hull?

Please describe it in terms that a non-cat owner or newbie to cats would understand.

Thank you for any serious answers to this sincere question.

The perceived jerkiness isn't a matter of perception. Cats are lighter displacement/length and much lighter displacement/living area. The result is, the boat is more affected by surface action, especially chop, wavelets, breaking seas etc.

A heavy mono will sit much deeper in the water and is stabilised by contact with the more stable subsurface water.
Of course, there are advantages to that light displacement/length- like speed and space, but the disadvantage of sitting on top of the water, instead of in the water is very real as well.



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[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by monte

Over sheeting is probably the main reason for any jerking effect. The sails need to breathe and over sheeting will block the airflow and cause a cat to crab sideways instead of foreword or alternate between the two. I would guess anyone who has felt that effect was a victim of an inexperienced skipper. Obviously cats don't heel much so while a mono might lean over to a gust, the clues to reduce sail, ease sheets, or turn up into a gust aren't as obvious on a cat. Any cat sailor with some experience would realise there's something wrong with the trim if any surging/jerking motion is present.

"Don't believe everything you read cheoah. Upwind performance is on a par with similar monos and berthing costs are about the same if you consider you're paying /m2 or for similar accommodation size. Alternately you can just believe everything you read "

I agree 100% with the sentence about not believing everything you read! The above two posts are by the same person. In one post he claims that upwind performance is on a par with similar mono's and in the other, he states that on a cat the sails "need to breathe" and cautions against oversheeting. There's truth to the part about oversheeting because a mono will heel in a gust, easing the pressure on the rig and hull, where a cat will stand straight up, increasing pressure on the rig. So, to avoid that jerky feeling on a cat, I can see where it would help to sail with the sheets eased a bit more than you might on a mono so the boat is properly trimmed in the gusts and a little under trimmed between them, but if you do that, then you won't get the same upwind performance that you would on a similar mono.

But the only way you will really understand the feel of a cruising cat is to sail one yourself, and if you do it on a charter boat in the Caribbean, you'll have plenty of opportunities to pick out a similar sized mono and see if you can stay with it beating to weather.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by monte

Over sheeting is probably the main reason for any jerking effect. The sails need to breathe and over sheeting will block the airflow and cause a cat to crab sideways instead of foreword or alternate between the two. I would guess anyone who has felt that effect was a victim of an inexperienced skipper. Obviously cats don't heel much so while a mono might lean over to a gust, the clues to reduce sail, ease sheets, or turn up into a gust aren't as obvious on a cat. Any cat sailor with some experience would realise there's something wrong with the trim if any surging/jerking motion is present.

I'll be sure to tell the professional crew on the Atlantic cat I sailed on to trim better to reduce jerkiness.


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