Brokers

[Sailorbob8599]

There's been a lot of discussion on the performance of Brokers recently and I've been wondering, when it comes to the buying and selling of boats, why do we need the services of a Broker at all? After all, surely it's just a matter of knowing what you want in a boat, check out the 'For Sale-For Sail' ads, decide which one suits your purpose and go buy it. What could be more simple?

Never mind the technicalities, or the conditions, is it simply because, whether buying or selling, we want to hold someone else responsible for our own personal inability to bargain or recognise a good deal when it is presented? I have bought and sold previous (smaller) boats sans Broker services and yet, when I put my current boat on the market, I decided to go with a Broker. I don't know why I did that.

My reasoning for doing so is because I was the contractor/builder of this boat and I figured there is just too much of 'me' built in it and I became concerned I might let my personal feelings get in the way of making a good sale. It also happens to be the most valuable boat I've ever owned. Not only that, it's also a one-of-a-kind that demands the 'right' buyer must be found who appreciates this kind of vessel. As well, I've poured more money into it than I can ever expect to recover. Knowing this, I felt a Broker would, or should, be in a position to judge the current market and also where, how, and whom to market my boat to.

The boat is clean, it was hauled for cleaning and application of new anti fouling by the marina's service department in June, of 2017. All Marina fees are paid until August 2018. and I shall winterize the boat this coming weekend; there is already a marine heater running 24/7 to prevent moisture and/or mildew.

Being located in the PNW, it's not inconceivable someone might want to do a trial sail during the winter months after all, some of us have sailed over to the islands for Christmas in previous years and others are still doing so. I am at an age I can no longer think of winter on the water but I think I might leave the sails bent-on this year. So to be prepared, how should I deal with a request for a winter trial sail? I can't go out myself and I don't know anyone I could ask to 'stand-in' for me and accept responsibility to do such a thing.

I recognise, the job of the Broker is basically to bring buyer and seller together. It's then up to me to accept or reject an offer. What else should I know going into the disposal of a personal asset? I would be interested in the comments of forum members.

[dcstrng]

As you say, the broker can help insulate you from the barter/bargaining/haggling process – something I detest, given my distinct antipathy for sales folks or the process (I was one, once – but a different trade). But, having said that I’ve twice purchased a boat that was brokered (one for sure, the other via a supposedly silent partner). In both cases I ended up with maladies that were (in the one case) hidden from the surveyor or undisclosed. On the other hand, I’ve bought boats from private parties on my own and done no better. For a knowledgeable buyer, my limited experience near the bottom of the food chain is that brokers add very little except perhaps a formal mechanism to park escrow funds, if used. On the other hand, if I was buying/selling something that could actually be called a yacht, I’d probably have a broker working for me – and I’d make dang sure they knew exactly who their employer was.

[Hobie_ind]

For me there's a price point where the broker starts adding value (as a buyer and a seller).

For boats I'm looking at now, there's no value in the broker option for me as I'm looking solely at local boats, they're at a price point where I'm comfortable with the associated risks, and I have a good idea of what to look for based on my previous ownership and sailing experience.

When we were shopping for a bluewater boat ($200,000+) last time, and looking at options all over North America and the Caribbean, we used a broker (and a really good one). I found they had access to more boats for sale (in that range with other brokers), along with much better information and contacts in far away places than I could get.

When we sold our boat, we had it listed privately for the last 3 months we were cruising. I got an enormous amount of interest from tire kickers & YouTube watching dreamers, but no serious takers. While they're out there, most serious buyers of boats in that size range are looking through brokers. When we got to Australia, I listed it with a broker, had a conditional offer a week later (for pretty much what I was listing it privately) and had the seatrial/survey completed and funds in my account the next week.

So I don't think a blanket statement about Brokers (or most topics on CF) works.

PS. As an aside, I'm not against private sales at all. When we were boat shopping last time, I did stumble across a private sale on a boat model we were considering seriously in the Caribbean. We ended up purchasing that boat (from another couple in the city we lived in!) privately. When I advised the broker we had been working with that we had potentially found a boat privately, I was pleasantly surprised when he offered me a MS Word copy of their Offer to Purchase form as a template and some advice on options for surveyors and closing. We ended up using a lawyer for the funds transfer after successful survey and seatrial.

[Tetepare]

A broker is your sales agent. Sales is a skill set. It is also specialized. I run a global sales department and I sail; despite that I don't know the sales broker lingo or buyer's buttons to push.

A broker can conceal defects via ignorance. If somebody asks me about my boat if all the hoses are perfect I'll have to admit that the hose to the muffler should be replaced. A broker simply says (truthfully) "I don't know" and in many cases the issue is put to rest.

Brokers have access to YW and also post to a variety of other sites which would take me quite some time- besides the fact that I can't post on YW, since I'm not a broker.

Brokers are available (generally) all day. I don't have all day to drive to the boat, show it, and do it again five times over the next week. I made the mistake of telling a potential buyer the combo, and he and his buddy proceeded to inspect the boat...not being particularly boaty, they ripped the dodger canvas and left open a port. If a broker had been there that would not have happened.

Brokers line up all the paperwork. They arrange the escrow which protects both buyer and seller. It can be done without a broker, but do you know how to do it?

[S/V Illusion]

The only question none of us can answer for a seller is whether the broker is worth 10% of the sale to you.

For a buyer, a broker serves little purpose except, as someone implied, for the owner to hide behind.

[CatNewBee]

Well, a good and reputable broker company will manage the proper hand over and handle the payment as trustee and can also help with the registration. This could protect seller and buyer not to end up ripped-off especially in a foreign country in cross-border sales.

[2big2small]

From my personal buyer’s perspective brokers are ignorant, incompetent, lazy, and unresponsive and usually make the transaction impossible. I don’t get the information I need from them or they even straight-out lye (mostly in Europe). In the worst case they don’t want to do anything for you unless you fork over a downpayment first sight unseen (US). When I buy I always search both the broker and private listings but I’ve always ended up buying privately simply because you can’t get anything done through brokers. I’ve only ever talked to one who was excellent and I’m sorry I couldn’t buy from him in the end. All the others with whom I could even get a conversation started, about a dozen, were deadbeats.

The usual line from brokers I get is “come and see the boat,” never mind that it is on another continent. I’m not travelling that kind of distance before I receive full information and am pretty sure that that’s the boat I’ll end up buying. So if I do ask for information after going through hundreds of listings I’m pretty serious already. Usually I ask for just a few bits of info first that might be deal breakers. Only after that may I send a more exhaustive list of questions if the boat requires it. But even the first three or four questions are usually too much to ask.

In contrast, private sellers, anywhere in the world, will usually be knowledgeable and get back to me within a couple of days at the most.

From a seller’s perspective, and given my experience with brokers as a buyer, it’s not surprising that I first try to sell my boats myself and so far I’ve always gotten the price I wanted within a few months. I am realistic about my asking prices however. They’re usually good deals, which I can afford to give because, hey, there’s no broker commission!

I don’t find it tedious to deal with a few dreamers or unpleasant people. I even kinda like the formers. The right buyer shows up at some point and everything goes smoothly. As far as the paperwork, usually it’s straightforward. You can find everything you need online including export and import information and for mutual protection you put in clauses that the seller is obliged to sell and the transfer of ownership doesn’t happen before full payment is received, for which you set a time limit. No need for a broker.

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Brokers line up all the paperwork. They arrange the escrow which protects both buyer and seller. It can be done without a broker, but do you know how to do it?

[CatNewBee]

Well, in most cases you do not find what you are looking for from a private seller. There are in most cases broker involved.

As a buyer from the other side of the world I am happy to be in contact with an international broker, that at least speaks English and can provide information and some sort of security on the transaction.

I would not wire 200-400k to an foreign account to an unknown person in a country I probably have never been before and have no support if something goes wrong.

A broker company - even they do not guarantee for anything can provide some sort of confidence and ease the process and help settling disputes...

[2big2small]

And for the would-be sellers I’d like to add that if you work exclusively with a broker and don’t give it a shot yourself, you risk ending up with one of the deadbeats who will drag out the sales process forever, sometimes years, out of shear laziness, after which you’ll sell your boat for a misery out of despair. They’ll get their cut either way without ever lifting a finger. In the mean time you’ll be paying dock fees, maintenace, and insurance, further compounding your losses.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Well, in most cases you do not find what you are looking for from a private seller. There are in most cases broker involved.

As a buyer from the other side of the world I am happy to be in contact with an international broker, that at least speaks English and can provide information and some sort of security on the transaction.

I would not wire 200-400k to an foreign account to an unknown person in a country I probably have never been before and have no support if something goes wrong.

A broker company - even they do not guarantee for anything can provide some sort of confidence and ease the process and help settling disputes...

You travel to see the boat and you meet the seller with whom you build some rapport. He proudly shows you everything you need to know about his boat and its operation. It’s much better than talking to a faceless broker. You get to copy the seller’s ID card (an official document available in many industrialized countries) or passport to add to the paperwork.

I wouldn’t wire money to a banana republic obviously. It has to be a country with rule of law and an established shipping registry, which you will check out too before buying of course even if only to make sure there are no liens.

[2big2small]

And for the sums involved, the banks will often require full information about the parties before accepting to perform the transaction.

[2big2small]

Sorry to add on another loose post here for another bit of thought but you do get to browse private listings the same as broker listings. They are harder to find than the ubiquitous yachtworld.com but they offer the same variety of models and price ranges, at least for the kind of boats I’ve been buying which are sailboats from 27 to 49’. Heck, I’ve even bought a boat off craigslist.

[CatNewBee]

Well, you can do this in the contract with a broker too. You make a non-exclusive contract - you can also give the boat then to more than one broker company.

You can also add some points / contractual obligations in the brokerage agreement - like listing the boat in 1-3 major online portals and placing monthly adds in regional boating publications if the broker insists on a exclusive contract.

[D Rock]

This is an interesting thread as I am vested in the input.

I would have to agree that every situation is different. Here is my approach.

My wife and I have our Tayana 48 for sale. We have been full time cruisers for over a decade. Last year My wife was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes (4 insulin shots a day...ouch).

We have an extremely well equipped and maintained boat and I have done the research on pricing it. Currently we have an open listing with a broker. That means he (or any broker) can sell it and get paid or we can sell it and he doesn't get paid. First one to the finish line wins.

I priced this boat at 10% less than average (U.S. offerings on Yacht world) to do two things. First is to attract attention as we want to get her sold. The other is to avoid the 'haggling'. There is no point in that. We are reasonable, rational and fair. I am not interested in wasting energy on hagglers. I am more like,"tell me why it is worth one penny less than my already fair price". It is an 'end around' the tire kickers.

There is no reason we should take less than our asking price. We have done the work and know what she is worth. So many boats on YW are under equipped (for what we wanted) or less than bristol condition (by my standards), or have owner's that are delusional (maybe I am one of those?).

It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out...

Peace, Love, Nomad

[valhalla360]

The only issue with not using a broker is above maybe $20k-30k, most boats are represented by a broker.

Particularly as the price goes up, similar to the real estate industry, the brokers have locked down a large enough percentage of the market that to stay completely away from them becomes difficult and introduces problems.

The one exception would be if you are selling remotely. Realistically, you aren't going to travel every time the boat is shown but for $20k (on a $200k boat), you can pay someone local to do a lot of showings.

Otherwise, I just haven't seen any good brokers.