Boat Brokers: How should we deal with them?

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

As has become abundantly obvious, there are two or three mega-posting, knee jerking brokers and/or sycophants who barge into any post that even remotely shows displeasure with their checkered profession. I'm sure most of us are aware that almost every forum or website tends to develop a small core of alpha monkeys – typically with a secondary group of sycophantic beta's who – when the coast seems clear – then chime in in “meee too” fashion. Nothing new, and this thread seems no exception.

Like most trolls of these kinds, they use much the same techniques. Their goal is to pile on and drive out the commentary of others by engaging in escalating insults, personal attacks, parsing out minor errors – all with the goal of trying to reject the whole. By doing so, posts tend to be shorter, and less vulnerable to such pissant parsing.

Usually that works. Readers will find the following of great value in dissecting these furry intruders. In no particular order:



Here's how this one works. Had I said I'd looked at 5 boats in the last year and a half, their attack would have been “Humph... looks at just 5 boats in the last year and condemns brokers? Says it all”. The approach is “Damned if you do, damned if you don't”.



There's a bunch of these, mostly posted by our resident broker mafia. The basis of this kind of ad hom is of the sort that infers "”. This poster won't even try to counter any of the many valid points made in the OP. Condescending and smugly non-specific. We are to defer and trust such alpha's.



This is an example of parsing misrepresentation, out of context (it later led to a theme, to follow). I never – ever – stated my OP was strictly about Florida, when in fact I was clearly discussing boat brokerage in general. I never even named Florida; indeed I was actually posting from Ohio, where I was looking at boats (under Ohio law). This trolling technique allows a knee jerking responder to then falsely claim (just like above) that my statement in re “commingling” was “simply and completely wrong”.

Based on a self-serving, single example.

In general, other than FL and CA, boat brokerage is not regulated – my point - and the commingling of funds can and does occur in the other 48 states. Indeed, pending funds are still commingled even in Florida in a separate account which, sadly, is still under the complete control of the broker.

Comments like these typify the use of made up strawmen, in this case by parsing misrepresentation – to give the poster a made up basis to post exaggerated and misleading rejections and implied ad homs.



This is where the pile-on and ad homs began on the basis of their strawman “he's wrong about Florida,” so he must be wrong in general. Wrong. It was and still is my intent to speak of boat brokerage in general in the states.

Sorry boyz.

Many very valid points were made, and have been frequently expressed by many buyers elsewhere in these forums – forgive me for summarizing them. The repetition of a misrepresentation does not make it true. Hint: almost all states are completely unregulated and unlicensed, and the so-called Florida exception really isn't one, as Florida is minimally regulated, and little enforced.

The “separate account” was heavily lobbied, and provides minimal protection as the funds remain in the brokerage name, and under its complete control. There is nothing to prevent misuse or misallocation of funds until after the fact. If a Florida brokerage fails, you can be sure the “separate account” will be tied up for years with competing legal claims and lawsuits. No one would ever put serious money in the hands of a real estate brokerage, and for the same reason. The value of a neutral and independent escrow and title insurance agent cannot be overstated.

Here's how this trolling technique works: parse out an isolated example (Florida), then claim that “he is COMPLETELY wrong”, while at the same time this very same single example is supposed to annoint the troll as completely right regarding the rest of the country! Really? Same forced strawman, completely opposite results for same misrepresentation. Typical.

Oh, and I might add that the fact is that funds from all pending sales are – just like the many unregulated states - are likewise commingled, but only in yet another, separate account that is STILL established, owned, managed and under the complete control of the brokerage. To confuse this with the specific, limited, trustworthy, independent and impartial services of an independent escrow and title agent – is just plain silly.

There is a significant and serious difference between the broker's separate account scheme, however legal, and true and real independent escrow. I won't bore you here – the trolls will parse it anyway – but you should know that the issue of so-called broker “trust accounts” is the subject of widespread legal controversy, most based on the obvious conflict between opposing loyalties – for the broker – loyalty to his seller on one hand, and to the transaction on the other. In many cases a broker cannot represent both at the same time, ergo the conflict.

This is exactly why independent and impartial escrow/title insurance agents are demanded in almost all ordinary real estate sales by buyers, sellers, and banks alike. Real escrow agents represent the transaction only and alone – not the buyer, seller or broker. This can never be said of the broker and his/her much more vulnerable “separate account”.

More here:
The facts about so-called boat “escrow”? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Carry on...

well said

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

You also said brokers are dinosaurs (well, not quite, but close enough )

Well, not really that close. What I said was that brokers who do not embrace modern means of communication are dinosaurs and will soon be extinct. I stand by that statement.

On the other hand, there are plenty of brokers out there who are not stuck in the last century, and use modern communications quite effectively. Those brokers are going to survive while the others will either adapt or die. And I suspect that many of those who think "serious buyers" always use the telephone will eventually realize their mistake and adapt.

So, I think an important distinction is that my statement was by no means a general one about "brokers." It was a very specific one, only about SOME brokers.

Or maybe I'm just nit-picking.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

... brokers are already a valueless impediment in many cases. Soon that is ALL they will be, if they do not learn to do business in the modern world.

I guess then the "... in many cases" is the important distinction - not all are dinosaurs, just many. Yep, we're nit-picking.

Perhaps it's the high upper end of the market where they (or many?) may survive or thrive a little longer? Mega-yacht buyers may be happy to scatter a little extra cash around for their services, while the bottom end is only crumbs anyway, not worth the hassle.

[Biomed]

Hi Captn Jimbo! I compared your remarks regarding broker's obligations to the seller, with the provisions of paragraph 17 " no warranties" of the standard form of the yacht broker association is America. That seems to be the end of the sales routine. As I wrote before, your post has been most informative and helpful in dismantling the broker myth they seem to have created, with regard to credibility, ethics and professionalism. Being far away, and following the market from the UK, we have been surprised time and again by what we regard as the opposite. No longer. Your post and a number of replies set us straight! Thanks to you all!!
The form dealing with the seller refers to the job description of the broker, preparing the sales forum (listing, imaging, text for advertising and dealing with potential customers.) The standard form for the purchase order, particularly section 17 thereof, in essence reduces the whole listing, advertising, representations of any kind to little more than hot air. We are in the market for a +/_ 3m/m USD boat, my money pays for a 300k USD commission. In essence, I sign for, inter alia, the following:
No warranties or representations of any kind have been made or will be made by the brokers or seller re. condition or use of the yacht..... Now, seriously? Read any advertisement, and say this again without choking! Now throw some phone calls, emails and visits into the mix. According to the standard po, it never happened! Seen any ads without yacht specs such as " turn key condition, real blue water yacht, maintained with open check book policy, completely refurbished, better than new(!!),a list of new replacement items, hull and deck repairs, rewired, and much more. Then of course, reams of pictures and walk through videos. Never happened and don't exist. And were never published to entice anyone to reply, to possibly buy the boat.
Then I must certify, that I, the buyer, have not relied on any and all representations of the broker as to the condition or capabilities of the yacht or its Inventory. Please....Seen any ads not singing the praises of the boat under review, and the specs lists??
What does the broker think, made me reply to his listing, and the following contacts as a result thereof?
And now the kicker: I am signing off, that I accept responsibility for determining patent or latent defects in the boat or its Inventory.
After I have been informed in writing and on video that the boat is ready to cruise any ocean, and is in a Bristol, better than new condition. Here, this deliberate mess may well constitute " fraudulent inducement of a contractual relationship".
Mr broker, if you are the kind of insisting that this "warranty is "standard" and must not be excluded, just what on earth should persuade me to regard you as an honest, ethical , professional go between, uniquely qualified to advise me and to control 300kUSD and the balance if in essence, on your own version, nothing should be believed, even less relied upon? Just what value do you place on this "service"?
To Jimbo, and all others who helped put the broker issue into a more realistic perspective, a hearty thank you!
Those brokers, who stand by what they represent and do not require this "warranty" should not feel included in this post, and I hope to meet you, to get our retirement boat!
As we never came close to an offer, as requested information was not sent, or the boats were unsuitable to start with in spite of the specifications sent ahead, I never saw this YBAA gem until you chaps alerted me to it. Even less reason to trust their "Trust Account" than before Jimbo's post and detailed information, confirmed by many other well considered opinions. Well done, thanks from my wife and I!! Fair winds to you all!

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

I guess then the "... in many cases" is the important distinction - not all are dinosaurs, just many. Yep, we're nit-picking.

Okay, you caught me. I forgot about that pretty general statement about brokers. Oops! My bad.

[zeehag]

had good and bad experiences with brokers.
i choose to avoid em due to them refusing to send buyers to my ericson when i was selling it. no issue. the commission was only 3000 usd, so why waste time on it. it was no fancy yacht worthy of a sale price of 150 000 usd yielding a reasonable 10 percent commission, so why bother.... ok
so i avoid brokers anymore. while i used em i found some reasonable boats at unrealistic pricing. oopsy. high price pushed by broker so he get commission. family wanted to sell specific boat 26 yrs.. hahaha broker refused to drop price so i didnot buy the wetsnail. she was special and cute. no issue, there was a formosa out there for me. for less than precious cute wetsnail and with fewer refit issues.
i find knowledge and a decent surveyor, if needed for a major purchase, is all i need.
this formosa i surveyed myself. didnot need loan nor insurance on hull, so i was good.
didnot miss anything either. got what i wanted and for the price i needed to pay. win win.