Boat Brokers: How should we deal with them?

[NevisDog]

I just joined the dots...

'71 y.o man', 'internet is for losers'... of course, email 'paper trails' are only for those with nothing to hide, nothing to lie about, nothing shady going on.

[akprb]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

In our case the answer was simple - we had a gutsfull, so decided to ignore any adverts from brokers and focus solely on private sales. That way you get immediate attention, you get the person best qualified to answer, you soon figure if he genuinely wants to sell or is just testing the market, and best of all there is no stuffing around with middle-men!

Just vote with your feet - plenty of private sales out there to choose from, and no commission for the seller to cover in his inflated price either - it's a win-win.

Perfect!

For example this for sale by owner ready to go and perfectly staged in the Bahamas!

:-)

http://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/63799

[NevisDog]

That sailboatlisting seems like a great price - what's the catch? No broker fee?
(Just asking - I'm not in the market.)

[akprb]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

That sailboatlisting seems like a great price - what's the catch? No broker fee?
(Just asking - I'm not in the market.)

Where in NZ are you NevisDog??? We lived in Opua and Takapuna 05-12

No catch! Did a look at other 40.5s on the market and priced accordingly. We’re at the upper end of that market but with a new mast and standing rigging along with truly ready to go (I’d deliver to NZ for a full price offer if you throw in a watermaker)

One poster past is correct, if you call me directly I’ll talk your ear off about her.

For now time to move on to the next adventures, Pacific Northwest in our future.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by akprb

... (I’d deliver to NZ for a full price offer if you throw in a watermaker)...

As stated, I'm not in the market but great offer. We're in Opua for another 10 days then Marlborough Sounds is calling. (Seems this beautiful nook gets kinda crowded in the cyclone season - well if you can call little ol' Opua crowded.)

Now, back to broker bashing?? We actually met two that were just great, lovely people, up-front, open, honest. (2 from 10 is not great odds though.)

[akprb]

Walk up to 15 English Bay Road, that’s our old house.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by akprb

“email is for losers, winners pick up the phone.”

Understand the point, and agree that if what you are doing is not working, then you need to try something else. Nonetheless, the above is a very 1990s sort of attitude.

The world is changing. The Millennials are coming. In another ten or fifteen years the serious buyers will be absolutely unwilling to "pick up the phone" other than to send an e-mail or a text message! If you cannot do business that way, you will be OUT OF BUSINESS!

The brokers need to adapt. As lots of other posters have pointed out, brokers are already a valueless impediment in many cases. Soon that is ALL they will be, if they do not learn to do business in the modern world.

[Suijin]

When I was last in the market for a boat I called brokers directly and talked to them on the phone. One reason was to start a conversation about a given boat which I was sure would reveal more than the listing included. Get a salesman talking and you'll learn more in five minutes than from an hour of staring at a listing and stroking your chin.

It also allowed me to take the measure of the broker in terms of their personality, their knowledge of the boat, and their general professionalism, which are all salient to whether pursuing the boat further is prudent.

This process also allowed me to find a buyer's broker who I trusted and who was very familiar with the boat I was looking for. That representation ended up being incredibly valuable throughout the process.

Sending out email inquiries is a waste of time. No broker is going to sit there pecking out a detailed reply for obvious reasons. Pick up the phone and start a conversation.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

The world is changing. The Millennials are coming. In another ten or fifteen years the serious buyers will be absolutely unwilling to "pick up the phone" other than to send an e-mail or a text message!

You may be right. They'll do everything be email. And in order to protect themselves, they'll have the politicians vote in more laws and protections.

I do like the old way- phone. As Sujin said, you can learn a lot more on a voice communication than via email. I like to establish a relationship, to whatever extent- always turns out for the better.

Millennials. Oh Lord save us! The children of soccer moms and baseball dads...they won't be buying boats, they're too busy grooming their 1/4 acre lawns around McMansion. And if they do, they'll be easy targets for unscrupulous salesmen and brokers.

[Aswayze]

Probably not a wise idea to just assume that an entire generation is stupid. Besides, last time I checked most of the McMansions seem to be occupied by gibbering old people.

[akprb]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Understand the point, and agree that if what you are doing is not working, then you need to try something else. Nonetheless, the above is a very 1990s sort of attitude.

The world is changing. The Millennials are coming. In another ten or fifteen years the serious buyers will be absolutely unwilling to "pick up the phone" other than to send an e-mail or a text message! If you cannot do business that way, you will be OUT OF BUSINESS!

The brokers need to adapt. As lots of other posters have pointed out, brokers are already a valueless impediment in many cases. Soon that is ALL they will be, if they do not learn to do business in the modern world.

The market is adapting. That is the point of capitalism.

How many travel agencies do you see around these days.

Brokers only existed because of inefficiency in the market. As the market becomes more efficient only the best we’ll survive.

As to millennials how many will be able to tie a bowline without googling it first will be something to see :-)

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

I like to establish a relationship...

But that's the point. EVERYONE prefers to establish a relationship. The younger generation as much as us old fogeys. But they do it in different ways. They establish their relationships via texting and e-mails. We may imagine that their relationships are somehow not as good as ours were, because they don't actually talk to each other. That's just old-fashioned thinking, though. Their relationships work for them, and that's all anyone cares about.

Any salesman that sits by the telephone, and imagines that "serious buyers" are always going to call, rather than texting or e-mailing, is a dinosaur. His time on Earth is limited. He will be extinct soon. He is exactly like the salesman 100 years ago (and I bet there were a lot of them) who said, "I don't need to spend money getting a telephone. I'll just end up wasting all my time talking into that silly thing! Serious buyers want to see you face-to-face. They aren't going to spend time talking through a wire!"

[Capn Jimbo]

As has become abundantly obvious, there are two or three mega-posting, knee jerking brokers and/or sycophants who barge into any post that even remotely shows displeasure with their checkered profession. I'm sure most of us are aware that almost every forum or website tends to develop a small core of alpha monkeys – typically with a secondary group of sycophantic beta's who – when the coast seems clear – then chime in in “meee too” fashion. Nothing new, and this thread seems no exception.

Like most trolls of these kinds, they use much the same techniques. Their goal is to pile on and drive out the commentary of others by engaging in escalating insults, personal attacks, parsing out minor errors – all with the goal of trying to reject the whole. By doing so, posts tend to be shorter, and less vulnerable to such pissant parsing.

Usually that works. Readers will find the following of great value in dissecting these furry intruders. In no particular order:

“Looked at 50 boats in the last year” Says it all.....

Here's how this one works. Had I said I'd looked at 5 boats in the last year and a half, their attack would have been “Humph... looks at just 5 boats in the last year and condemns brokers? Says it all”. The approach is “Damned if you do, damned if you don't”.

...”there are so many wrong assumptions expelled here, I won't even begin to counter them.”

There's a bunch of these, mostly posted by our resident broker mafia. The basis of this kind of ad hom is of the sort that infers "

"I'm a broker, and this guy doesn't know anything, so this bozo isn't even worth my response"

”. This poster won't even try to counter any of the many valid points made in the OP. Condescending and smugly non-specific. We are to defer and trust such alpha's.

”Well, there are some aspects that are not negotiable. In Florida brokers are required by law to maintain a separate trust account that they must use for any and all escrow payments they receive. The OPs statement that they commingle your down payment with their own private accounts is simply and completely wrong.”

This is an example of parsing misrepresentation, out of context (it later led to a theme, to follow). I never – ever – stated my OP was strictly about Florida, when in fact I was clearly discussing boat brokerage in general. I never even named Florida; indeed I was actually posting from Ohio, where I was looking at boats (under Ohio law). This trolling technique allows a knee jerking responder to then falsely claim (just like above) that my statement in re “commingling” was “simply and completely wrong”.

Based on a self-serving, single example.

In general, other than FL and CA, boat brokerage is not regulated – my point - and the commingling of funds can and does occur in the other 48 states. Indeed, pending funds are still commingled even in Florida in a separate account which, sadly, is still under the complete control of the broker.

Comments like these typify the use of made up strawmen, in this case by parsing misrepresentation – to give the poster a made up basis to post exaggerated and misleading rejections and implied ad homs.

”You have already demonstrated quite clearly that you are COMPLETELY unfamiliar with the laws that regulate boat brokers and boat sales in your own state, yet you expect us to believe that you know about "the great majority of states."

This is where the pile-on and ad homs began on the basis of their strawman “he's wrong about Florida,” so he must be wrong in general. Wrong. It was and still is my intent to speak of boat brokerage in general in the states.

Sorry boyz.

Many very valid points were made, and have been frequently expressed by many buyers elsewhere in these forums – forgive me for summarizing them. The repetition of a misrepresentation does not make it true. Hint: almost all states are completely unregulated and unlicensed, and the so-called Florida exception really isn't one, as Florida is minimally regulated, and little enforced.

The “separate account” was heavily lobbied, and provides minimal protection as the funds remain in the brokerage name, and under its complete control. There is nothing to prevent misuse or misallocation of funds until after the fact. If a Florida brokerage fails, you can be sure the “separate account” will be tied up for years with competing legal claims and lawsuits. No one would ever put serious money in the hands of a real estate brokerage, and for the same reason. The value of a neutral and independent escrow and title insurance agent cannot be overstated.

Here's how this trolling technique works: parse out an isolated example (Florida), then claim that “he is COMPLETELY wrong”, while at the same time this very same single example is supposed to annoint the troll as completely right regarding the rest of the country! Really? Same forced strawman, completely opposite results for same misrepresentation. Typical.

Oh, and I might add that the fact is that funds from all pending sales are – just like the many unregulated states - are likewise commingled, but only in yet another, separate account that is STILL established, owned, managed and under the complete control of the brokerage. To confuse this with the specific, limited, trustworthy, independent and impartial services of an independent escrow and title agent – is just plain silly.

There is a significant and serious difference between the broker's separate account scheme, however legal, and true and real independent escrow. I won't bore you here – the trolls will parse it anyway – but you should know that the issue of so-called broker “trust accounts” is the subject of widespread legal controversy, most based on the obvious conflict between opposing loyalties – for the broker – loyalty to his seller on one hand, and to the transaction on the other. In many cases a broker cannot represent both at the same time, ergo the conflict.

This is exactly why independent and impartial escrow/title insurance agents are demanded in almost all ordinary real estate sales by buyers, sellers, and banks alike. Real escrow agents represent the transaction only and alone – not the buyer, seller or broker. This can never be said of the broker and his/her much more vulnerable “separate account”.

More here:
The facts about so-called boat “escrow”? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Carry on...

[denverd0n]

And did I call it, or did I call it? If only I could have gotten someone to take me up on the bet!

[NevisDog]

You also said brokers are dinosaurs (well, not quite, but close enough )