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Old 03-12-2014, 06:37   #76
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Loading a boat may both improve and degrade performance.

After all, six men on a rail is loading a boat. Pumping up the Afore tank in an IMOCA is loading a boat. Etc.

As for differences (in the degree of possible performance loss), light vs. heavy tub: it will be proportional. But the light tub may become unsafe as it has limited options of storing the load low.

Etc.

PS It seems that Cigale and Jeanneau take any over/loads best. A French rule?

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Old 04-12-2014, 19:01   #77
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

On a big boat you have plenty of space to keep the loads down, normally under the settees on the saloon or under the beds of the cabins. Also on the central cockpit storage space on the cockpit that allows to put the load near the waterline.

Even on a modern fast 41ft boat like mine there is space for a lot of load down. I agree that the weights have to be carefully distributed but even with my boat fully loaded, for starting my 4 or 5 months cruising, I have space for more. I don't want to put more because I don't want the boat too slow but that is another story.

A modern fast small light boat like the RM 1060 has an amazing load ability (that's the designer that decides the max load). Empty it weights 4.6T and fully loaded 7.3T. That is a 2.7T load, just amazing for a 35ft boat. I believe the shape of the hull has a lot to do with it.

RM1060 - RM Yachts
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Old 04-12-2014, 19:44   #78
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

On the ARC, the big one , the two big racers have already made it to Santa Lucia, the Swan 80 will be arriving next but regarding the following boats there is a great race between the fast smaller Philocat 45fter and two 61fters, a cat and a monohull. The monohull has overtaken the cats (not for much) and the Italian beauty, the Felci 61, is leading followed closed by the Philocat 136 and the Moxie 61.

The next cat is an Outremer 49 and is far away having many smaller and similarly sized monohulls ahead: A X55 and a Sly 47 are closer to the leading cats than to the first Outremer 49 and about middle distance between the leading cats and that Outremer some surprisingly boats, an older and always very well sailed Oyster 48 lightwave (scarlet Oyster), and a small Grand Soleil 43. Still well ahead, a X45, a Dufour 45e, a XP44, a Azuree 40 and a X442.

The next cat (the 4th cat) is a surprisingly well sailed Lagoon 450 that is slightly ahead of the second Outremer 49. They are at a considerable distance from the first Outremer 49 and several smaller or same sized monohulls are in between them and ahead of the Lagoon 450: a First 47.7, a surprising middle weight XC45 and an older Swan 51.

The next cats are far away and have ahead smaller performance cruisers of the same size but generically we can say that they are among monohulls of about the same size. The exception are two smaller cat that are going very well, a Lagoon 400 and a Privilege 37 that are surrounded by bigger monohulls, even if the first 40ft monohulls are way ahead and both are very clearly outsailed by a very well sailed Linjett 37.

The mentioned Priviledge 37 is very far away from the Lagoon 40 and is also outsailed by a Southerly 38.

http://yb.tl/arc2014plus#
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Old 05-12-2014, 06:09   #79
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

And that Moxie 61 that leaved behinf the smaller 45ft Philocat and is on pursuit of the same sized monohull, the Fy61 desrves a post. A very fast cat no doubt, an all carbon one, a performance cruising boat designed to race and to cruise around the world.

It was commanded by a NewYorker to VPLP and the design is very interesting, offering great performance on a low windage cat with a great cruising interior and a rigging set up for short crew sailing. But images explain it better as well as hearing the owner talking about it:


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Old 05-12-2014, 09:53   #80
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post

(...)

A modern fast small light boat like the RM 1060 has an amazing load ability (that's the designer that decides the max load). Empty it weights 4.6T and fully loaded 7.3T. That is a 2.7T load, just amazing for a 35ft boat. I believe the shape of the hull has a lot to do with it.
Amazing is the word. I am amazed.

I think we could ask M Lombard what exactly "light" stands for in this case.

A boat that takes on 57% (sic!!!) load clearly will go from light to heavy displacement category in the process. Just imagine the change in related forces acting on the rigging!

And with the hull so flat and the ballast so light (ballast way less than the load) I find it difficult to imagine what the load does to where the center of gravity ends up vs. her center of displacement.

And with only 33 sq m in SA and a boat loaded to 7.3 T, I fail to see how the boat can perform well off the wind.

I would love to listen to Marc and hear how he explains the magic of modern day boat design.

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Old 05-12-2014, 10:11   #81
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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And that Moxie 61 that leaved behinf the smaller 45ft Philocat (...)
Exactly. What makes that Moxie thing so slow? I mean it is 61 while the other cat is only 45. Unfortunately, I did not see Moxie at the dock. I cannot say what sort of spoilers drag her down. I have seen the PhiloCat. This one is a plain cruising catamaran, looks very well made, and is very easy on the eye (except for her most horrible old fashioned slanted window panes).

I bet my money on the Philo thing and it looks like no way I am gonna loose.

Too bad what I make on the bids does not buy me a cat like that! ;-)

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Old 05-12-2014, 10:21   #82
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Amazing is the word. I am amazed.

I think we could ask M Lombard what exactly "light" stands for in this case.

A boat that takes on 57% (sic!!!) load clearly will go from light to heavy displacement category in the process. Just imagine the change in related forces acting on the rigging!

And with the hull so flat and the ballast so light (ballast way less than the load) I find it difficult to imagine what the load does to where the center of gravity ends up vs. her center of displacement.

And with only 33 sq m in SA and a boat loaded to 7.3 T, I fail to see how the boat can perform well off the wind.

I would love to listen to Marc and hear how he explains the magic of modern day boat design.

b.
That's a bit like the cats: big beam allows the ability to take charge since the water line will go less down than on a narrower boat.

The max charge is no joke since both the stability curves in max charge and minimum sailing weight would have to pass on the boat certification. I have looked at those curves on another RM (that I assume with an identical proportional max load) and the stability safety parameters were not very different, with some Degrees of difference on the AVS and a bit less safety stability but with a much bigger max stability.

Regarding speed I agree with you: the boat will be slower, specially downwind with lots of wind were it would not be able to reach semi planing speeds.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:31   #83
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Exactly. What makes that Moxie thing so slow? I mean it is 61 while the other cat is only 45. ...
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I don't think it is slow. Look at the other two Outremer 49, very fast cats that are far away. I believe that Philocat besides being a very well designed sailboat is very well crewed...and than you are comparing both performances with a fast Italian carbon bluewater cruising boat (the ones you like) and that one is not only also very well sailed buy it is a dam fast monohull (do you know it has a lifting keel?).

For now you are losing your bet, the Philocat is behind and even if the Felci 61 is ahead, it will be a close call with the Moxie 61. Till the finish they will get between 10 and 13K winds. I bet on the monohull.
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Old 05-12-2014, 18:42   #84
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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....

I bet my money on the Philo thing and it looks like no way I am gonna loose.

Too bad what I make on the bids does not buy me a cat like that! ;-)

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It seems you are going to lose tha bet.... and not just by a bit. On the last 24 hours the Philocat had only made 185nm while the Moxie made 213nm and the Sly 200. The Philocat risks to be overtaken by the big new Oyster 825 that made 223Nm. Maybe they had blew a Spi on that Philocat. Another day like that and the Oyster is going to eat it. Less then 2 days for the finish.
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Old 05-12-2014, 19:04   #85
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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I don't think it is slow. Look at the other two Outremer 49, very fast cats that are far away. I believe that Philocat besides being a very well designed sailboat is very well crewed...and than you are comparing both performances with a fast Italian carbon bluewater cruising boat (the ones you like) and that one is not only also very well sailed buy it is a dam fast monohull (do you know it has a lifting keel?).

For now you are losing your bet, the Philocat is behind and even if the Felci 61 is ahead, it will be a close call with the Moxie 61. Till the finish they will get between 10 and 13K winds. I bet on the monohull.
Philo is 45.
Moxie is 61.

Philo sails as fast as Moxie. Which of the two is slow then? NOTE: Feet, not years old ;-)

Felci I must look this one up. Somehow this one failed to catch my dock dog eye.

I say let the fastest boat win, whichever style she is. I love them all and the pretty one twice as much!

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Old 05-12-2014, 19:18   #86
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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It seems you are going to lose tha bet.... and not just by a bit. On the last 24 hours the Philocat had only made 185nm while the Moxie made 213nm and the Sly 200. The Philocat risks to be overtaken by the big new Oyster 825 that made 223Nm. Maybe they had blew a Spi on that Philocat. Another day like that and the Oyster is going to eat it. Less then 2 days for the finish.
Hahaha!

Yes, Miss Philo won my heart a bit I must admit. Fast she is but above and beyond I do like boats to be pretty. This one looks like a boat, like a cloud, like a tern, like a sailing thing that can fly. I stood there and watched her and she just felt good.

I never bet on ugly ones. They may win but I would not like to marry an ugly fast one. I am looking for heart in the first place, then for looks and if she sails fast too then I AM IN LOVE (AGAIN)!

;-)
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Old 06-12-2014, 06:23   #87
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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Hahaha!

Yes, Miss Philo won my heart a bit I must admit. Fast she is but above and beyond I do like boats to be pretty. This one looks like a boat, like a cloud, like a tern, like a sailing thing that can fly. I stood there and watched her and she just felt good.

I never bet on ugly ones. They may win but I would not like to marry an ugly fast one. I am looking for heart in the first place, then for looks and if she sails fast too then I AM IN LOVE (AGAIN)!

;-)
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Yes, i can understand that very well and even if the design of that Moxie 61 seems to be very effective, including windage, it is not beautiful to my eyes. Yes among two boats racing together I will always wish the victory for the more beautiful, the smaller or the one that is not only is a racer but a performance cruiser with a great interior and a great cruising potential.

That's why I don't understand you dislike the Fy 61, the monohul that is racing successfully a big performance cat of the same size and another very fast one a bit smaller. Take into consideration that the cats are racing on their best point of sail (downwind) while the Fy61 is a boat maximized for upwind sailing.

I bet that the Fy 61 has a better cruising interior than any of the cats. It has also a lifting keel (2.35m/3.8m). Felci, the desiner, says about these type of boats:

"The Fast Cruisers represent Felci Yacht Design’s flagships.
This type of boat represents the synthesis between the ability to design a fast boat, conceived to be a safe and efficient means of transport, and the ability to design a boat created as a space in which to live. The challenge lies in the search for synthesis and equilibrium. "


and about this particular boat, the Tyke FY61:

Boat of the Year prize winner at the Genoa Boat Show in 2008, thanks to the unmistakable style of her interiors.
The contrast between the different ligneous essences, mixed with broad white satiny lacquered surfaces, makes the furnishings of Tyke, the FY 61 number five, particularly striking but at the same time welcoming and cozy.
The system of home automation which is used to manage all the boat’s amenities, as well as the navigation software, is particularly interesting.
The general set-up is similar to that of the 61s although numerous details were requested and created to be able to face long scheduled off-shore navigations such as, for example, the twin blades steering system and the lifting keel that enables Tyke to enter coves with less than three meters of depth.


Well, to me it seems to deliver what the designer wanted to make it for: Great sailing and great cruising, including long range one















Probably you will no some boats designed by Felci,he also has designed some great performance cruisers and main market mass production boats with the same design quality. My preferred among those is the little "big" Dufour 31, a great design.





Of course this does not mean that I do not love the Lerouge design, the Philocat, I like it very much, as much as I like the Fy 61.
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Old 06-12-2014, 07:07   #88
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

And definitively some big problem on the Philocat that is sailing slower. I hope it is just a blown out sail. They had been overtaken by the new big Oyster 825 (great performance for the type of boat) that is going much faster: 198nm on the last 24h versus 166. The other Oyster 825 is also coming as a bullet and may well overtake them, if they do not manage to sort out the problem (220nm on the last 24h).

There are other very interesting fights among the leading boats, starting by the one enter the monohull and the cat with the same size, the Fy and the Moxie, both fast carbon boats. The Moxie is recovering and has been just a bit faster on the last 24 hours (200 to 198) but it is a very tight fight.

Another boat doing a fantastic performance on the last 24 hours is the little Azuree 40 (200nm). She had overtook the Xp44 she was pursuing!! and overtook the Swan65 that is leading its class!!!!. Who says that inexpensive mass production performance cruisers with a great cruising interior cannot be dam fast if well sailed What a performance, what a boat for downwind sailing...and not bad upwind.

Look at interior photos:
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Old 06-12-2014, 07:37   #89
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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The mentioned Priviledge 37 is very far away from the Lagoon 40 and is also outsailed by a Southerly 38.
If I'm not mistaken this Privilege 37 Tanoa has already done a 10+ year circumnavigation and was sold to new owners in 2012. According to the sales site (Neues von Tanoa) she is loaded to the waterline with a ton of heavy items.

Since the new owners are out there for curising I bet they haven't taken much of the stuff off the boat.

Very nice performance for a small, heavy and tank-like cat.
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Old 06-12-2014, 08:23   #90
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Re: ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

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If I'm not mistaken this Privilege 37 Tanoa has already done a 10+ year circumnavigation and was sold to new owners in 2012. According to the sales site (Neues von Tanoa) she is loaded to the waterline with a ton of heavy items.

Since the new owners are out there for curising I bet they haven't taken much of the stuff off the boat.

Very nice performance for a small, heavy and tank-like cat.
yes, I agree. Certainly well sailed too. But without being a performance cat the weight and the windage of the Privilege 37 are far away from the typical "tank condo" cat.

The Lagoon 38 weight 7.2T and has 77m2 of upwind sail area and the older Privilege 37 has 6.5T and 80m2 of sail area. Regarding windage look at the diference:





http://www.multihull-maven.com/Boats/Privilege_37
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