Documented Boats in Florida

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by rwidman

The intended point of this thread.

So how do the thousands of boats that visit Florida each year deal with this? Why isn't this in all the cruising guides? How is Florida allowed to do this and what if every coastal state did the same?

Like with most cars, most states do require registration.

It's more the states that don't that are the exception.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by rwidman

How is Florida allowed to do this...

I think the short answer is, "because they can." People want to visit Florida in their boats for a number of reasons. So the State can impose fees because the "demand" is there. Maybe a constitutional scholar could explain why this doesn't violate some interstate constitutional provision.

In contrast, Maryland does not do this to non-registered Virginia boats, like mine. The states share the Chesapeake and Potomac Rivers and it makes sense to allow unfettered access between the two jurisdictions.

Another State with the Florida disease is New York. As I described on the other thread discussing this topic, I have an acquaintance who was ticketed in NY for not having a State registration. He had the time to fight it in court and won. The judge threw the case out because the boater was in full compliance with the laws of his home state. But the NY law is still on the books. I wrote to NY to get an explanation of the law (because I plan to visit someday in my non-registered boat) but got no answer. My solution may be to register my boat in Delaware because Va does not register doc'd boats.* Delaware is cheap with (I think) just a one time fee and you don't have to be a resident. I know of several other Va residents who have done this just to avoid the Florida issue.

* Virginia does offer a faux "registration" to resident doc'd vessels not requiring any numbers or stickers - specifically to get around the Florida issue. You get a piece of paper to show to officials from another state that you are "registered" in Virginia. But this opens up the Va vessels to potential local personal property taxes, which can be exorbitant.

Dave

[J Clark H356]

Captain Bill has it right. I took our boat from Kentucky Lake to Florida the winter of 2013 - 14. I checked into the rule as I had been documented since purchase in 2003 and not state registered. I found that once you cross Into Florida waters you are required to have either another state registration or a Florida Sojourners permit if staying for more than 90 CONTINUOUS days. I bought a Tennessee state registration for both my boat and dinghy before starting on my cruise. I just display the state decal on my port rear window and no number since I am documented.

I was first in Florida in early November and was cruising along the Northern Gulf Coast until early December when I left Florida waters and went offshore to Clearwater. My interpretation was I left Florida waters when I left Panama City and got beyond the 3 mile limit, and 36 hours later re-entered at Clearwater around December 5. I interpreted that the clock started over on December 5 for another 90 days. I wintered in Punta Gorda until March 1 and started home. In February, I went out of Florida waters and then back in the next day at Indian Key, that stopped and restarted the clock again. I was well within the 90 days and so far as I was concerned, started the 90 at clock again. I left Flordia waters at Clearwater pass on March 8 and went back in at Pensacola Pass for a couple of hours in Florida 50 hours later and headed west to Alabama where I left Florida and was headed north. I didn't ever spend 90 consecutive days in Florida from early November until early March. If I had planned on leaving the boat in Florida waters for over 90 consecutive days, I would have purchased a Sojourners Permit. I think the cost of that is around $90, which compared to my cruise was very small change. I keep logs of all my trips and had GPS tracks to prove I was off-shore and out of Florida waters. I had a USCG Vessel check decal and no one ever checked my vessel while there. I would have been glad for them to and I think I followed the law.
The trick is to have a state registration when you hit Florida waters or you could be stopped and fined, or purchase a Sojourners Permit from Florida at your first point of contact in Florida waters if you don't have a state registration.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[cofc]

Originally Posted by rwidman

The intended point of this thread.

So how do the thousands of boats that visit Florida each year deal with this?

They ignore it.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

If you become a state of Florida resident then you are required to register your documented boat in Florida even if you have it in another state.

No offense, but I don't think this is correct. I just spent about 40 minutes looking through Florida statutes chapter 328 (which is the one that covers vessel registration). Pretty much every paragraph in there starts with some statement about vessels "operated, used, or stored on the waters of this state." I could not find anything that would apply to any boat that was NOT kept in Florida waters.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by cofc

They ignore it.

Exactly. It doesn't get enforced, so it's never been challenged in court, so it stays on the books.

Every state has laws that are like this in that they make no sense, everybody ignores them, they never get enforced, and so they just stay on the books. Until just a few years ago Colorado had a law that said that any automobile entering an incorporated town had to be preceded by a rider on horseback or a person on foot. Same sort of thing, really.

Maybe someday the law will be repealed. Or someone will come down to visit, get a ticket, and decide that they want to fight it. Then the courts will throw it out.

In the meantime, I would spend about the same amount of time worrying about this as I spent, when I was living outside of Denver, worrying about finding a rider on horseback to precede my car into town.

[hellosailor]

Ron-
That Florida registration law is not applicable to "boats". It applies to MOTOR VEHICLES. Which just might be watercraft.

Got no motor in your boat? Then it is just a boat, no problem.

Got a motor? Then your boat is a motor vehicle, and like pretty much every motor vehicle capable of causing damage and fleeing the scene in any state, it has to be REGISTERED with some state. Any state. And after 90 days in one state? Yup, that's also pretty much the uniform standard in the US, after 90 days in one state, they own you.

Now Florida has many quirky, perhaps even bizarre motor vehicle laws. They charge a bloody fortune for titling cars, even old used cars. But they don't even allow for annual safety equipment or emissions checks. And, you can't buy a front license plate even if you're willing to p ay extra for it. Which apparently also fails to impress the LEO's, who always ask "Did you get a plate number?" and they just nod when you say "Uh, no, this state doesn't seem to think that end of the car needs one."

Quirky Florida boat registration, after 90 days you must get a FL registration number, BUT you are allowed to keep your existing out of state registration and title, so you don't get hit with the full cost and paperwork. Just...well...two registrations, which most other states would call flat-out illegal.

It is like visiting the headhunters in Papa New Guinea. The local customs are rather different from those in Kansas. Not that there are cannibals in either place, so they say.


Perhaps we could get Monty Python or The Onion to contribute a section on Florida to Noonsite.com? (G)

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

No offense, but I don't think this is correct. I just spent about 40 minutes looking through Florida statutes chapter 328 (which is the one that covers vessel registration). Pretty much every paragraph in there starts with some statement about vessels "operated, used, or stored on the waters of this state." I could not find anything that would apply to any boat that was NOT kept in Florida waters.

Agree, Florida doesn't care about vessels/vehicles not operated in Florida territory, regardless of one's primary residence.

And, you do not need a FL address to use for registration, as long as you pay with US dollars, they don't care where they send the renewal notice (including foreign countries).

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Got a motor? Then your boat is a motor vehicle, and like pretty much every motor vehicle capable of causing damage and fleeing the scene in any state, it has to be REGISTERED with some state.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

One more time: some states do not require registration or will not register a vessel, motor or not, that is USCG documented. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Virginia is one example >> Virginia absolutely will not register a doc'd vessel no matter how hard you try.

Dave

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

One more time: some states do not require registration or will not register a vessel, motor or not, that is USCG documented. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Virginia is one example >> Virginia absolutely will not register a doc'd vessel no matter how hard you try.

Dave

Yes. Same for South Carolina. That's what this is all about. A USCG documented boat with no state registration visiting Florida for less than ninety days.

[cofc]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Yes. Same for South Carolina. That's what this is all about. A USCG documented boat with no state registration visiting Florida for less than ninety days.

I have a documented boat and our home port is in SC. We do nothing when we go through Florida. Never had an issue. I'd guess that reason you've never heard about this law and it's not in the guidebooks is that it's completely unenforced.

[nautical62]

I've registered two boats in Florida as a non-Florida resent. Quite the opposite to saying I had to have a Florida address, they were very specific about saying I had to register it even though I did not have one.

It seems to me they don't care about residency, they care about registration fees.

[hellosailor]

Context, Dave. Florida does what most states do wrt treating boats with engines as "motor vehicles. Yes, some states--which are not topical here in this thread--treat boats differently. Heck, last time I checked RI was still the only state which didn't require cars to carry insurance, that used ot be real popular. Or maybe, they just had the lowest required insurance of any state...they were a joke for whatever they were up to.


As for problems in NY? There are too many local jurisdictions and watercops in places like western LI Sound. Many just don't know the rules. Last time I looked, NY only required a boat to be registered in NY if it remained "in the waters" for 90+ days. That means, 89 days and go to NJ or CT for one day, and you can come back and still not be required to have a NY registration. You'd still be required to pay taxes, but conveniently those are only collected on registration, or when some watercop finds out you skipped that. 89 days in the water and hauled overnight? Again, you're not "in the waters" for 90 days, no reggie needed.


Laws like this are usually scattered in multiple obscure parts of different state codes, so it is no wonder that everyone, including watercops, are confused.


But "use tax" everywhere is a way to clawing back sales tax when a sale to a resident has taken place out of a venue. It's a one-shot deal, never an annual expense, by definition. If you paid a tax annually? That could be a personal property tax. One tax that neither NY nor FL tolls.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Context, Dave. Florida does what most states do wrt treating boats with engines as "motor vehicles. Yes, some states--which are not topical here in this thread--treat boats differently.

Actually, it was in fact, the specific topic of this thread.

Last time I looked, NY only required a boat to be registered in NY if it remained "in the waters" for 90+ days. That means, 89 days and go to NJ or CT for one day, and you can come back and still not be required to have a NY registration. You'd still be required to pay taxes, but conveniently those are only collected on registration, or when some watercop finds out you skipped that. 89 days in the water and hauled overnight? Again, you're not "in the waters" for 90 days, no reggie needed.

Sorry, you're still wrong. Look again.

Let me try to explain this in the simplest terms possible: NY, like Florida, requires all US vessels to be registered in some state. The 90 day grace period applies only to vessels registered in some state. Not registered in some state, you're immediately illegal.

As others have stated, enforcement of this obscure law may be lax and it's highly unlikely somebody will be affected. But my acquaintance who got ticketed in NY for not having a state registration on his US doc'd boat had to spend a lot of time to beat the rap. If he hadn't had the time or fortitude to participate in that process, he would have had to pay a fine plus get his boat registered in a state other than his residence and other than the home port of his documentation. How much sense does that make?

Dave

[hellosailor]

Dave-Are you sure your friend had a boat problem in NY? Or, did he have a motor vehicle problem, that coincidentally was a motorized boat? NY applies different laws to each. The registration laws I had read applied to boats--not motor vehicles. If he had the usual "auxiliary sail boat" then he had to comply with motor vehicle laws, which would demand some registration of the vehicle. If he had an unmotorized boat...
It goes back to confusing patchworks of rules.


We had a problem with NYS DMV one year while transferring (changing out one partner's name) the reg on a boat which had been registered for over a decade and renewed without incident all that time. No, the clerk said, you need one more digit in the VIN. Huh? VIN never changed, that's all there was. No, the supervisor said, you need one more digit, bring us back photos of the VIN, or a rubbing of it, to prove what it is.
May the Gods bless Photoshop, they got the photo they wanted. Logic be damned, you are dealing with the NYS DMV and they don't answer to anyone.


Of course if your friend dealt with a "municipal" judge or magistrate, the ABA has had words about those in NY too. I had a friend ticketed for not having a proper inspection stamp on his car registration years ago. Went to the court session with him, heard two other guys ordered to pay fines for the same problem (the locals found it was easier than writing speeding tickets), then when my friend showed the "magistrate" the actual state law that said "stamp or windshield sticker" my friend's ticket was dismissed. But no one called back the other two guys, who had just been illegally ticketed and fined. The magistrate didn't correct himself, even though he knew he was wrong.

The cops & courts in NYS? No better, or worse, than the legislature. Wouldn't want to change that tradition, now would we? (sigh)


You've really got to roll your sleeves up, and yes, that can be economically unfeasible (as they say) in order to get these things fixed.