Delaware Bay in a moderate southerly

[sneuman]

Some buddies and I are planning to leave in a few days for a quick trip up to NYC from our home base on the Magothy River in the Chesapeake Bay.

2 crew members are fairly experienced; 1 (the skipper) has done the ICW, but no offshore. 1 crew member is a newbie.

Boat is a Dufour 382. Keep in mind that we would prefer to go straight through if possible (yes, I know it's not ideal, but we all have jobs to get back to ...)

Of course, we have 2 options, down the Chessie and up or through the C&D and down the Del. Bay.

I've done the Delaware a few times and have had pretty good luck. It's a boring stretch of water, IMHO. And the black flies! But, no problem weather-wise.

IF we went Delaware Bay, we'd head out of the Magothy around 0800, be up to the canal by around 1600 and then through it before sunset. We'd be heading down the Del. bay at night and reaching Cape May by sunrise of the following day.

MY QUESTION: expected conditions in the Delaware = winds out of south 15-20 knots. Is that going to set up a steep, uncomfortable and speed-killing chop?

Down the Chesapeake would be motoring with 5-10 knots in the face, but it's a body of water that 3 of the 4 of us are much more familiar with.

A few factors: we are going to be in a bit of a time crunch. We're expecting it to be a bit sporting on the offshore leg, with 25-30kts. and 6' following seas. We are not sure about the return trip yet, as it's at the edge of the forecast, but ideally we'd get to NYC fairly quickly to give us maximum flexibility on the return. Still, taking an extra day to go down the Chesapeake in reasonable conditions and then do the Virginia Beach-Cape May leg might be preferable to a bash down the Delaware Bay.

I actually called the Cape May Coast Guard station to see if they could give me a sense of what conditions on the bay are like in various wind strengths, directions and during flood and ebb tides. The petty officer I spoke with (who said he was a coxswain on one of the boats) was pleasant enough but kept telling me "just watch the weather" (and rather unhelpfully, gave me NWS website). Despite my repeated prodding, I couldn't get any specifics from him.

Anyone know the Del. Bay who can give some local knowledge?

[Bill O]

Lots of threads on CF about transiting the C&D and the Delaware Bay, so a search to review those discussions would be helpful.


For departure scheduling would look at the tidal flows going through the C&D and time it so it's going with you. May need to stop on the east end of the canal to get the outgoing tide heading down the Del.. As always, if there is a strong contrary wind against a tide, it could kick up some waves.


With your mast height, you will need to go around (no Cape May canal) to get into CM.


Unless you really want to do the Delmarva loop, on your way back would head up the Del again. If you leave from CM ~ 2hr. before low tide, you will ride the tide all the way up and through the C&D in one shot. We have made it to Worton for an evening swim.

[SailFastTri]

Being on a tight schedule with crew having fixed deadlines is a yellow flag that may prompt poor decisions. Based on what you wrote you should expect your worst concerns to be encountered. Don’t overlook Lewes DE as a stopover, if you need a break from the weather.
It may be better to go outside Delmarva.
If it’s about the destination, not the journey, it may be better to take Amtrack or drive. NYC is not generally boater-friendly, but of course your post wasn’t asking about that.

[jt11791]

Down the Chesapeake is something like 100nm longer trip. If you are pressed for time, as you say you are, the C&D is your only choice. The weather and sea conditions are unlikely to be much different from one to the other IMHO. Go the C&D like everybody else does and don't over think it.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sneuman

MY QUESTION: expected conditions in the Delaware = winds out of south 15-20 knots. Is that going to set up a steep, uncomfortable and speed-killing chop?

Often depends on concurrent direction of tide/current.

Wind against tide often sucks... in both Delaware and Chesapeake.

-Chris

[redneckrob]

Fellow Magothy River sailor here, and retired Coast Guard pilot. I am going to be very blunt here but I mean this in the very best way. This reads like it could come right out of a crew resource management/safety textbook scenario on the factors leading up to a mishap. Significant research into safety shows us that a large number of mishaps are due to "get-home-itis" and it's crucial to minimize schedule constraints as much as possible because they lead to poor decision making and to being forced into bad positions one can't escape from. It sounds like you're already making a number of suboptimal decisions that are necessary to meet your schedule, and that's before you've even set out and encountered the inevitable small (and large) unexpected items that will slow you down. Add to that, your plan depends on the skipper of the boat going offshore for the first time....at night....in the most challenging conditions they've ever encountered. Seriously, this reads like a mishap report already! The idea that you'd just hop on down the bay as an alternative also makes one wonder of the general planning that's gone into this, how could one not have time to stop overnight but could do a minimum of an extra 15 hours to do that add-on...assuming it's not just as snotty going down the bay as the Delaware and you can actually do 6+ knots?

I would strongly advise against this trip under these conditions. I spent a week just circling the Delmarva, I would never plan to do that in less than 3 days with an extra day of slack built in, and even on that schedule it would suck. Do it sometime when you have a week or choose a different destination (Onancock, Hampton Roads, Philly, Lewes, Cape May.....), but please, reconsider doing this as described. Having stood in his shoes, the CG guy you talked to probably wasn't being terribly helpful because he wasn't in a position to be blunt with you, but I'm retired so I will be for him. Again, I realize this comes on strong and I may well come off like a jerk, but I am trying to inject a reality check with sincere best intentions coming from someone who sadly literally picked up the wreckage from far too many of these situations over many years.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Fellow Magothy River sailor here, and retired Coast Guard pilot. I am going to be very blunt here but I mean this in the very best way. This reads like it could come right out of a crew resource management/safety textbook scenario on the factors leading up to a mishap. Significant research into safety shows us that a large number of mishaps are due to "get-home-itis" and it's crucial to minimize schedule constraints as much as possible because they lead to poor decision making and to being forced into bad positions one can't escape from. It sounds like you're already making a number of suboptimal decisions that are necessary to meet your schedule, and that's before you've even set out and encountered the inevitable small (and large) unexpected items that will slow you down. Add to that, your plan depends on the skipper of the boat going offshore for the first time....at night....in the most challenging conditions they've ever encountered. Seriously, this reads like a mishap report already! The idea that you'd just hop on down the bay as an alternative also makes one wonder of the general planning that's gone into this, how could one not have time to stop overnight but could do a minimum of an extra 15 hours to do that add-on...assuming it's not just as snotty going down the bay as the Delaware and you can actually do 6+ knots?

I would strongly advise against this trip under these conditions. I spent a week just circling the Delmarva, I would never plan to do that in less than 3 days with an extra day of slack built in, and even on that schedule it would suck. Do it sometime when you have a week or choose a different destination (Onancock, Hampton Roads, Philly, Lewes, Cape May.....), but please, reconsider doing this as described. Having stood in his shoes, the CG guy you talked to probably wasn't being terribly helpful because he wasn't in a position to be blunt with you, but I'm retired so I will be for him. Again, I realize this comes on strong and I may well come off like a jerk, but I am trying to inject a reality check with sincere best intentions coming from someone who sadly literally picked up the wreckage from far too many of these situations over many years.

This ^^^ I fully agree with.

[hpeer]

Here are the Delaware Bay current predictions. You can see how this fits with your travel schedule and the predicted weather.

https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/of...rrents_nowcast

The currents are quite strong. You are heading south. If the current is against you it will slow you a good bit. If it is with you it will build a nasty chop. Some find it quite uncomfortable.

You do have the ability to lay over in Delaware City or Reedy Island anchorage in the canal end and Lewes on the ocean end. Lewes can be quite open to a NW wind.

[SteveSails]

Having done that trip several times my advice.

First put it out of your mind that you NEED to get to NYC, if the weather forecast is not so good stay put, plan a side trip, enjoy.

You do not want to be off the coast of NJ in 30kt winds even if behind you, the 6' seas could be 8' and a very short period. IMHO is the coast of NJ can be some of the worst conditions on the east coast. Wait for a forecast, if heading N, of SW 5-15kt.

Plan bailout points along the way, Ches City on the C&D, Cape May, Atlantic City are good. Keep in mind that the NJ inlets can be treacherous in heavy weather and require local knowledge, most likely better off outside.

Stay safe and good luck.

[malbert73]

Done that many times, and I now longer will head south into more than 10-12 S wind- you will be fully submarining through steep big chop with wind against current (as you should plan) about 1/3 way down DE bay. Miserable, and you will find every deck leak possible. Cape May is a nice stopover.
Don’t think you can go through canal.
I wouldn’t head south. Just wait in Chesapeake city, summit north marina, or reedy island for a favorable current and breeze window.

[chriswheat]

redneckrob's advice is spot on. I also speak from experience. Schedules and sailing are typically mutually exclusive. If you decide to give it a go and want (invaluable) input on local weather and sea conditions don't bother the coast guard, ask the local TowboatUS captain who will be assisting you if needed. Those guys are usually happy to keep you out of trouble. If you don't have TowboatUS then definitely reconsider this trip.

[mvmojo]

I've done Chesapeake Bay to NYC a number of times via the C&D/Delaware Bay. I agree with Redneckrob and others, you're setting yourself up for misery at best & likely a lot worse. If you're bound and determined to go no matter what (and if so, why ask for advice/opinions on a forum?), you might want to call the BOAT/US and/or SeaTow tow boats in the Delaware Bay and ask them about conditions. They're an excellent resource for local condition reports.

[Sailshabby]

25-30kts. and 6' following seas, a newbie, the owner with only ICW experience, and two with some (undefined) experience? Concur with others. The wx forecast is an approximate- it could be better and it could be worse. NJ coast isn’t a welcoming place for anything with a keel if things go south. It’d be an adventure until it suddenly wasn’t, then you’d be bashing back. Keep us posted…

[Golden Echo]

We’ve done the D Bay a couple of times. Never had an issue heading down, always heading up. But going against that much possible wind? You are pretty much screwed no matter what tide you have. If your with the tide the waves will be very short and steep. Against the tide you will be losing a lot of speed. It will seem like the trip that never ends. The most dangerous thing you can have on a boat is a schedule. FWIW….

[malbert73]

All- the OP is very experienced having cruised extensively on his prior boat during an extended sabbatical if I recall from reading his articles in our local Chesapeake sailing magazine. Sure the NJ coast in a 25 kt southerly will be sporty but nothing that boat can’t handle. That’s a short coastal trip, not offshore jaunt and the Cape May or Absecon inlets are easy bailout spots. I did it on my Tartan 40 in similar conditions and still have the boat-record 14 knots on my GPS to show for it.
But the OPs question is about DE Bay and in my experience heading south into any southerly >10-12 kts with favorable current and you will be taking green water over the bow.
Agree schedules are a set up for issues- but this is not a dangerous plan- just a possibly sporty/uncomfortable coastal sail.