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Old 31-07-2016, 13:27   #106
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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Put down the doobie brother. Comprehension will come back.
man, gave me the bro job right in a public forum.
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Old 31-07-2016, 13:34   #107
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Re: carribean vs the other side

Was sitting at an open air dock eatery in Nuku Hiva.. nice local food used by locals..
Often a sing along after the lunch rush and out would come one or two ukuleles and away they'd go for an hour our so.. Ace..!!
Anyway chatting to the owner I discovered though having the ability he see's no point in travel
If he's walking down the road and feels hungry he reaches out and plucks some fruit.. hr wants meat.. he gets his horse and dogs and goes up the mountain for wild pig or goat.. fish..? theyre all around..
Leave this for what I see on tv..??
Aahahahaa...!!!
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Old 31-07-2016, 13:35   #108
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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What I can say is the carribean is full of boats. This definitely spoils it. For example, the price of food is more or less 4x higher for everything and the variety in the market much lower.
Ok, economics. I know it seems that the high price of food is due to the tourists. Yes, they do drive up prices somewhat. But the real reason food is at a higher costs is that because there are few EXPORTS. Almost all the food has to be shipped in. Few islands are large enough to grow and or manufacturer enough food for their own population, let alone enough to share with tourists. So foid gets shipped in. But their arent enough exports to create two way trade. So boatts arrive with food but steam empty to their next stop. Transportation is enormously expensive but even more so if there is no pay day for tge return trip.
I can give you a land based example because I am a logistics coordinator for a dairy: transportation from manufacturer to seller adds about 50 cents per half gallon of milk. If the truck driver cannot get a back haul, the costs double because the truckers costs double. Food out to the islands will have the land based charges to get the food to port, then the marine transit added on top. Most ships will not be able to pick up sufficient goods to the next port to pay their way, so those costs are transferred to the consumer.

To further suport this I looked up some numbers on ghe web. Of course I did a totally scientific 10 second search but the island of Barbados exports 567 million dollars of goods per year. Their current import numbers are 1.8 BILLION. Thats a wide spread and illustrates high costs at the consumer level.
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Old 31-07-2016, 14:27   #109
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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You make a common mistake of many people from the developed world in that you equate standard of living with quality of life
so....umm....i notice you sail in a developed world type sailboat and not on a proa or a kon-tiki type sailing raft that you built with stone tools. has the developed world held you down and forced you to eat of the evil fruit from the tree of development, too?

quality of life really depends on attitude. people can live poor quality lives or high quality lives regardless of their standard of living.

but, the thing to remember, as i was teasingly pointing out, is that no one forces people to accept more modern ways of life. people are free to resist.

hell, America is full of homeless people and a lot of them choose that kind of life because it's the life they want. just take work at labor ready (a day labor company that uses actual citizens and doesn't pay squat but is better than nothing in a pinch) and talk to your fellow employees. you will find that quite a few of them are fully capable of holding regular jobs but, don't try to get better jobs and live 'normal' lives. they choose to live under bridges or in the woods behind railroad tracks because it's what they want ( i know because, i have worked for labor ready for a few stretches when SHTF).

just because you live in a country that values hard work to achieve a higher standard of living, it doesn't mean you have to choose to live that way.

since, people in these places have embraced a more modern way of life, one can assume they want the higher standard of living. they didn't certainly shun it in favor of the old ways.

you know, people tend to look on the older type traditional cultures and, in our dissatisfaction with the stressful lives we lead, view them as a simplistic paradise.

what people tend to forget is that people's physical cultures represent the farthest they were able to get on their path to a better life. just like the rest of us, they left behind a lot of older type traditional cultural ways as they progressed to where they got when we first encountered them. when new methods become available that make life easier, they embrace them.

we all originally came from a real culture of simplicity; running around naked with sharpened sticks for spears. but, i don't see anyone bemoaning the caveman era or calling for it's return. species evolve, cultures develop. the world moves on.

i think it's extremely presumptuous to claim the islanders that have embraced a move into a more modern lifestyle are simply victims of the evil Europeans. you are always hearing certain types of people whining about how the bad 'ol northern Europeans ruined this culture or that culture with their technology but, i don't see anyone clamoring to give up iron and steel, modern textiles, easily available food, heating and ac systems, radios, tv's, computers, cars, or modern medicine. anyone else notice a big rush to go back to the days before antibiotics when a minor cut could end up taking your life in a most horrible way?

and i think a good number of people don't really understand money.

in the beginning, fred had nothing. he was hungry; near starving. he came to farmer brown and, as he had nothing, he had to beg farmer brown for food. this left fred vulnerable to farmer brown and subject to his whims. fred was fed but, no longer free.

then, fred learned to blacksmith. now, when he went to farmer brown for food, he had something to exchange for that food and was no longer subject to having to beg. fred was fed and free. that's the gift of capitalism.

the trouble is, after a bit, farmer brown didn't always need blacksmith's services so fred would have to find out what he did need and find someone who needed blacksmith's services in order to trade his services for what farmer brown wanted so he could trade that to farmer brown for food. in time, fred found that he had to traipse all over the countryside trading his skills for this good to trade for that good to trade for another good to get something he could trade for food.

along comes money. money is a symbol of any possible good or service you might need. by trading money (essentially an IOU) fred only had to sell his skills for money to people who needed them and then trade his money for the goods he needed. no longer did he need the complexity of existing solely by barter.

is barter bad? no. is money bad? no. they are, in may respects, the same thing. barter is great when you have something that someone, who has something you need, needs. not so good when you don't. money fills in the void and this allows people a greater ability to get stuff they need or want.

sure, cruisers want the services that the boat boys provide but, sailors aren't coming with ships laden with the modern goods (or able to provide all of the services) that the islanders want. paying them money for their services simply gives them the ability to buy what they want or need, for themselves.

and, sure, the locals would survive without that income and those goods and services (assuming they aren't spending the money on medical stuff) but, it's obvious from the path the locals have taken that they want the things money can buy....everyone in this discussion does, too, because no one is giving cruising sailboats away in exchange for mangoes. if you know anyone who is, i have a few fresh mangoes i don't mind trading for a falmouth 34.
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Old 31-07-2016, 14:34   #110
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Re: carribean vs the other side

All the perspective of one who is materialistic. Many developing nations are struggling with materialism and avoiding it in many cases. Urban drift is beginning to reduce and reverse in some instances as the people see the mistakes of others who have gone down that path before them. Village chiefs are counselling their youth to retain the old ways.
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Old 31-07-2016, 14:36   #111
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Re: carribean vs the other side

This article touches on the economic effects some island nations are facing. Perhaps this isn't appropriate for this forum, but I think it's relative to the discussion of some island nations and their economies. The Finance Curse and the Danger to Countries That Become Tax Havens - The Atlantic
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Old 31-07-2016, 15:58   #112
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Re: carribean vs the other side

Take everything, give nothing back. The American way.
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Old 31-07-2016, 16:11   #113
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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Take everything, give nothing back. The American way.
NOt true. True for the Germans and many from "down under" but Americans tend to leave "clean wakes"; at least that is our impression from 30 years of cruising the globe. Americans have a thirst to be liked, and will go out of their way to please the locals whereas the Germans could care less. English normally do not associate with "inferior" races. Time after time we would anchor in some remote island only to have the locals come up and on finding we were Americans, would break out in big smiles. They would talk sink about some of the other foreigners who had left a very dirty wake behind them, mostly the Europeans, and almost always the Kiwis.
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Old 31-07-2016, 16:26   #114
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
Take everything, give nothing back. The American way.
Well to be fair it's not the US specifically. There are many countries, individuals, and corporations involved. Personally, I don't posses the intelligence to offer any viable solutions, other than to support the local economy while I visit.
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Old 31-07-2016, 16:32   #115
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Re: carribean vs the other side

Oh, but I have to admit, the US is completely neglecting their own island nations ie. Puerto Rico, USVI, Guam etc.
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Old 31-07-2016, 16:34   #116
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
NOt true. True for the Germans and many from "down under" but Americans tend to leave "clean wakes"; at least that is our impression from 30 years of cruising the globe. Americans have a thirst to be liked, and will go out of their way to please the locals whereas the Germans could care less. English normally do not associate with "inferior" races. Time after time we would anchor in some remote island only to have the locals come up and on finding we were Americans, would break out in big smiles. They would talk sink about some of the other foreigners who had left a very dirty wake behind them, mostly the Europeans, and almost always the Kiwis.

What about the French? You missed them out.....
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Old 31-07-2016, 17:50   #117
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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first, nazi was short for national socialist worker's party. socialism and capitalism are opposites. they don't make good bed fellows.

second, he is certainly not a capitalist. capitalism is about free trade; about getting the rewards equal to the effort you put out. trading value for value.

the OP is all abut receiving what he wants for free and is offended when people expect something in return for their efforts.
...and you can point me out those examples.
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Old 31-07-2016, 19:04   #118
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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Take everything, give nothing back. The American way.
Wasn't that a quote from "Pirates of the Caribbean"?
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Old 31-07-2016, 21:47   #119
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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Wasn't that a quote from "Pirates of the Caribbean"?
No, that was Bernie Sanders. Free stuff for all.
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Old 31-07-2016, 22:26   #120
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Re: carribean vs the other side

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No, that was Bernie Sanders. Free stuff for all.
My new bumper sticker reads..."None of the above...They both suck"
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