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Old 07-03-2016, 19:43   #121
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Somebody that reads what you write would have the impression that I am a guy with strange ideas that think, in a very lonely way, that EU should continue to take measures for creating the conditions for a future federation and that is quite odd, or funny if one has the right sense of humour, because it is you that are in a lonely position wishing otherwise in what regards EU population.

The ones that desire the same as me are more than the double of the ones that think like you

Regarding the Scots being British, it seem that some don't feel that way:

"Britain has always seemed to me be a construct."
Yet I have never.. felt remotely British."

Can you be Scottish and British? | Politics | The Guardian

Best Answer: Technically we are all British because we are a part of the united Kingdom. But many as i do hold different politicall views and see themselves as their nationality only i for one do. I am Welsh and solely welsh i don't class myself as British it's just a label on my passport. I want Independence for Wales. all countries in the World have a wright to govern themselves and not by other countries. the sooner we become independent the better IMO.

So it seems that "technically" Scots and Welsh are British but many do not feel British and some, or many on Scotland, would want independence, maybe not to be called technically British anymore
Polux.. that is the wonderful conundrum of the UK..
English, Scot, Welsh or Irish.. we all hold each other in contempt.. its a bit like the makeup of a Royal Navy Frigate.. Seaman branches dislike each other and in turn we dislike Tiffies, and Airey Faries.. however.. another ship insults any one of us and we unite as one..
Its the same with the UK.. we will insult and hate each other to our hearts content.. but.. an outsider insults one.. he insults us all.
Obviously this does not include Politicians.. they are whores who go with the highest bidder.
Wait a week or two and see their perspectives change.. another month and its a Volte Face...
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Old 07-03-2016, 19:58   #122
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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No mate.. to trivial a matter to get pissed about.. however.. steal my glass of Agua Dente Velho.. that's War..
It seems you are learning Portuguese but with some mishaps. Well I know what that is regarding English

But that one was funny: "Agua dente" means "Water tooth" but I understand that you mean "aguardente" ardente means burning and you will certainly understand why that water burns

But regarding that I am very European and I like also many different cultural products in that area, from Armagnac to Cognac, Calvados, Brandy, scotch, not particularly the blended one but things like old Lagavulin or Jura, in fact this conversation just made me thirsty and I am going to reach my bottle of Lagavulin for a drink.

Cheers to you.
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Old 07-03-2016, 20:06   #123
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pirate Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Why do you think that I think UK is a waste of space? UK is a political reunion of several countries. It is up to them if they decide to remain together or not. I have not an opinion about that even if I find that the citizens of any country, independent or not should be able to decide their future.

UK seems to agree with me since it allowed a referendum in Scotland about independence and I praise the British democracy for that.

I don't think differently regarding Catalunya and Basque country in Spain. Not against neither favor of their independence, only consider that they should be able to democratly chose what they want.

Regarding Socrates there is nobody more satisfied than me regarding him being in jail. And having Politicians in jail says not badly regarding the justice and democracy in a country. Unfortunately there are many countries, including European ones, that should have corrupt politicians in Jail but have them on power.

There are corrupt politicians everywhere, not all but some, but there are few countries that have them in jail, not due to some cup d'état but because justice has worked.

Regarding what EU has accomplished it is evident for me and for all that want the continuation of steps toward federalism: a much bigger sense of common identity, a bigger respect and reconnaissance regarding all the cultures that integrate EU that are seen as a common heritage, the richness of Europe. Difference in unity towards a common goal: a better strategic geopolitical and economic position for all regarding the inevitable evolution of world order.
Methinks you confuse the Dream with the Reality..
Zoroaster, Jesus, Buddha, they had the Dream.. we suffer the Reality.
Is what we see today Democracy in action..?? or merely frightened little people who live in a bubble scuttling around trying to save their asses.
If today is the start of your Dream.. I'm glad I won't be around to hear the screams.
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Old 07-03-2016, 20:09   #124
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Regarding what EU has accomplished it is evident for me and for all that want the continuation of steps toward federalism: a much bigger sense of common identity, a bigger respect and reconnaissance regarding all the cultures that integrate EU that are seen as a common heritage, the richness of Europe. Difference in unity towards a common goal: a better strategic geopolitical and economic position for all regarding the inevitable evolution of world order.
You're not going to get a better geopolitical and economic position for all. What you're going to get is what you have. Rich countries supporting poor countries; and rich countries expecting poor countries to become motivated to succeed while receiving handouts.

It's human nature. And dollars to donuts boatman61 doesn't see himself personally benefitting from the EU and you do.
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Old 07-03-2016, 20:18   #125
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pirate Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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It seems you are learning Portuguese but with some mishaps. Well I know what that is regarding English

But that one was funny: "Agua dente" means "Water tooth" but I understand that you mean "aguardente" ardente means burning and you will certainly understand why that water burns

But regarding that I am very European and I like also many different cultural products in that area, from Armagnac to Cognac, Calvados, Brandy, scotch, not particularly the blended one but things like old Lagavulin or Jura, in fact this conversation just made me thirsty and I am going to reach my bottle of Lagavulin for a drink.

Cheers to you.
I speak it better than I spell.. and I write phonetically.. but then I learnt by ear and live amongst folk who in the main speak little or no English.
Sorry I missed the 'Rrrrrr'...
For those following.. its basically Portuguese moonshine..
As for the Spirit World.. now your in my Zone.. except Scotch.. terrible stuff.. give me Welsh or Irish Whiskey any day..
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Old 07-03-2016, 20:26   #126
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It's human nature. And dollars to donuts boatman61 doesn't see himself personally benefitting from the EU and you do.
I don't see myself benefiting from anything other than my own labour.. from the cradle to the grave.
I lack the intelligence to rise above..
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Old 07-03-2016, 22:14   #127
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Nah! But you have a point there and France will learn the hard way but the reason UK wants out is mainly another one: They refuse a federal Europe, don't want to have part in it, having blocking all the moves towards it for a long time.

They don't want or have Schengen, they don't have the Euro and they want out of a lot of anything that goes towards an harmonization of laws on the Union (any harmonization imply a loss of sovereignty).

What they want is simply a trades agreement and EU has become a lot more than that and wants to continue developing steps towards a Federal state.
I don't think a Federal Europa is a good idea, I also don't think the idea has the support of the majority of the people in Europe. Basically, just a free trade zone is all Europe needed.
Just see what the Euro is doing to Europe...
So I don't blame the Brits here if they want to consider getting out.
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:09   #128
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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I don't see myself benefiting from anything other than my own labour.. from the cradle to the grave.
I lack the intelligence to rise above..
I am not sure if it is the case. Portugal. as it was pointed out by Boatman, would have recovered much faster from the crisis if it had its own currency and economy experts say that the ones that benefited most with the crisis on the Southern Europe where the North countries.

I don't think that is the difference. The difference is that while Boatman sees the present looking at the past I see the present looking at the Future.

It is possible or even true that some EU countries could have been living slightly better in the present if they were not building a new Europe but many times it is needed to make some sacrifices on the present for a better future and that is basically the divide between the ones that are not willing to do those sacrifices and the ones that are.

To give you an Example you have the case of West Germany that have chosen to reunite with East Germany (26 years ago), a much poorer country. For doing that it had to impose to its citizens many sacrifices and a lesser quality of live in exchange for a better future.

I believe that nobody will argue that Germany is now stronger and healthier than 26 years ago, even if we consider the West part of it.

Regarding Europe and EU it is the same problem at a bigger scale, it will just take more time but the end result will be the same and not only for the poor countries.

In EU the one that share the willingness to make those sacrifices for a better future are about twice the number of the ones that will refuse to lose any of their wealth in exchange for a better future.
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:14   #129
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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I don't think a Federal Europa is a good idea, I also don't think the idea has the support of the majority of the people in Europe. Basically, just a free trade zone is all Europe needed.
Just see what the Euro is doing to Europe...
So I don't blame the Brits here if they want to consider getting out.
Well, regarding having an opinion regarding if it is good or bad everybody can have one but regarding a majority of people supporting steps toward Europe the facts are those:

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It was about that when it was created many years ago, now:

"According to Eurobarometer (2013), 69% of EU citizens are in favour of direct elections of the President of the European Commission; ..
Two thirds of respondents think that the EU (instead of a national government alone), should make decisions on foreign policy. ...
...A large majority of the people for whom the EU conjures up a positive image support the further development of the EU into a federation of nation states (56% versus 27%)."
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:28   #130
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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I don't think a Federal Europa is a good idea, I also don't think the idea has the support of the majority of the people in Europe. Basically, just a free trade zone is all Europe needed.
Just see what the Euro is doing to Europe...
So I don't blame the Brits here if they want to consider getting out.
A Federal Europe was tried in the 40's. It wasn't a great success

Serious now

When I first moved to Europe I thought that joining the Euro and even a Federal Europe was a good thing, I even thought that the UK was made not joining the Euro. However after all of the fun with Greece and hearing from my Czech girlfriend how little Czechs and how hard it is for the Slovaks since they joined the Euro, I've reassessed my opinion on the Euro.

Have a look at the average wages within Europe. Within the Eurozone the Baltic countries and Slovakia the average salary is nearly a third of Germany, France and Netherlands. Portugal, Greece & Malta earn half as much.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage

By being part of the EU, these countries did have the potential to get richer (if they worked at it) by being part of a large free trade zone, but by also being part of the Euro zone, the poor countries have to play by the same economic rules as the rich ones. For wages in poor Euro zone countries to catch up, you need high wage inflation which I'm not sure can happen or if it is even good. For poor countries outside of the Euro zone, they at least have the chance to modernise their economies and achieve relative wage growth by having a strong economy driving up their currency at a sustainable rate. To me at least, being outside the euro zone gives people the better chance to catch up.

I suspect that under a Federal Europe, unless the rich prop up the poor countries to narrow the wage gap, then I will imagine that it will be even harder for the poor to play catchup.

To have a Federal Europe, you can't have such massive disparity between "states". In the US, I guess they have what are considered rich and poor States, but the wage disparity between States is minimal compared to Europe



A Federal Europe controlled from Brussels on behalf of the Germans and French will ensure that Europe has a ready source of cheap slave labour within it's borders. It will create racism and resentment within the "slave" countries towards their "masters".

A Federal Europe is going against what many peoples around the world are trying to achieve, self-determination. Many Scotts, Welsh, Basques, Catalans, Armenians, Tibetans and many, many others have dreams of ruling themselves and in some cases the EU has been offering moral and other support through the UN to these peoples. A Federal Europe will just create more people who want out.

I think that the Euro zone should be contracted back to the core rich countries and dreams of a Federal Europe, the 4th Reich, be crushed. The EU should concentrate on making trade within Europe competitive and easy and keep their noses out of how each country is run.
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:39   #131
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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To give you an Example you have the case of West Germany that have chosen to reunite with East Germany (26 years ago), a much poorer country. For doing that it had to impose to its citizens many sacrifices and a lesser quality of live in exchange for a better future.

I believe that nobody will argue that Germany is now stronger and healthier than 26 years ago, even if we consider the West part of it.

Regarding Europe and EU it is the same problem at a bigger scale, it will just take more time but the end result will be the same and not only for the poor countries.
I'm sure that the Germans believed the sacrifices were worth it to be reunified again. I doubt that the same Germans will be remotely interested in making any sacrifices for Portugal, Spain, Slovakia, the Baltics and especially Greece. Chuck in the non-euro Eastern countries and the Germans will lose whatever interest they had less. Maybe they might consider it if those countries gave up all control of their economies, their sovereignty , like East Germany did, but then we are back to a 4th Reich
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:39   #132
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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..
As for the Spirit World.. now your in my Zone.. except Scotch.. terrible stuff.. give me Welsh or Irish Whiskey any day..
I agree with you regarding the cheap or less expensive Whiskey (that I dismiss to a good Conganc, Armagnac or Aguardente Velha, but regarding high quality Whiskey I don't know better than Scotch, specially the one from the little Islands on the channel between Scotland and Ireland and Speyside even if that is a question of personal taste regarding other regions

Here, have a list that seems good to me even if I would take some and add others.

I know (had drunk) most of them and presently have two bottles that are on that list at home and on the past have had many more.
The Fifty Best Single Malt Scotch
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Old 08-03-2016, 04:43   #133
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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It was about that when it was created many years ago, now:

"According to Eurobarometer (2013), 69% of EU citizens are in favour of direct elections of the President of the European Commission; ..
Two thirds of respondents think that the EU (instead of a national government alone), should make decisions on foreign policy. ...
...A large majority of the people for whom the EU conjures up a positive image support the further development of the EU into a federation of nation states (56% versus 27%)."
I hell of a lot has happened since then.
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Old 08-03-2016, 05:04   #134
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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I'm sure that the Germans believed the sacrifices were worth it to be reunified again. I doubt that the same Germans will be remotely interested in making any sacrifices for Portugal, Spain, Slovakia, the Baltics and especially Greece. Chuck in the non-euro Eastern countries and the Germans will lose whatever interest they had less. Maybe they might consider it if those countries gave up all control of their economies, their sovereignty , like East Germany did, but then we are back to a 4th Reich
I don't think you are following what I am saying. The sacrifices of West Germany to integrate East Germany were worth it because they resulted in a stronger and wealthier Germany.

Regarding all the other countries you mention that is the same thing. Some present small sacrifices from the richest country will, like in Germany, be rewarded with a stronger and richest Europe in the future, even in what concerns the rich countries.

Obviously that you are wrong in saying that "I doubt that the same Germans will be remotely interested in making any sacrifices for Portugal, Spain, Slovakia, the Baltics and especially Greece"because if they would not understand the future advantage of that they will not be doing them and would have kick out of government anybody that would follow that policy and that is clearly not the case (for many years now).

On the Greek case there is a difference that resides in the fact that they have not been able to fulfill any of the agreements that have been made with them on the last decade. The sane has not happened with Portugal, Ireland or the small Nordic states.

Besides has I have already said Economists say that those are not sacrifices (on the part of Germany) and that Germany, already in the present is not being impaired on the economic relation with the poorer countries of EU.

"It has become a rule of the euro crisis: While a number of euro-zone countries suffer, Germany profits. The crisis may slow economic growth in Germany, but there are also a raft of crisis-related mechanisms that help the country profit at the expense of other nations."
Profiting from Pain: Europe's*Crisis*Is Germany's Blessing - SPIEGEL ONLINE

No, this was not published on a Greek or Portuguese magazine but on a German one and not a radical but a main one.
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Old 08-03-2016, 05:07   #135
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Re: In or out of the EU, how will it effect the boating community.

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Do my eyes deceive me.. or is a Federalist singing the praises of Monarchies and Imperialism.. this Thread get weirder and weirder..
They are all Statist adherents to the proven lie and despotic tyranny of "Divine Right".

They all think they are going to get the power, be it an individual, a clique, the "Party", the "Oligarchs", the "Technocrats", or whatever.

They don't just want to be 'above' the Law, they want to BE the Law.

It all boils down to Dictatorship by individual or group, and it always ends up with an individual (when power is available to grab, it always ends up in the hands of the worst of the worst).

As George Orwell said:

"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”

This is the path the EU is on, and nobody is going to like the destination. Then like all lawless States (what the EU already is by every definition) it will fail, and that failure is usually catastrophic.

The People of Europe deserve far, far better than this repeating insanity.
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