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Old 02-05-2013, 02:21   #211
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Actually, it is the skippers responsibility to assign the task to the crew member best suited for the job (which might be himself, or it might not).

Having command, means deploying and using your resources to their maximum capabilities. It does not entail doing everything yourself (you're a terrible skipper if you haven't trained your crew).

My wife is a former national level gymnast. Her sense of balance is far superior to mine. It only makes sense to send her if balance is a key issue. I'm stronger, so it makes sense to send me if pure muscle power is the key.

You've obviously never done deliveries as a living... trained crew.. or even having a chance to train crew is fantasy land..
Cork to E Spain... one over weight German and a hard drinking CGaS Irishman... the German had served as a steward on a ship briefly, the Irishman had crossed a river on a ferry once.. owner insisted they crewed...
Vanuatu to Perth... 21yr old Aussie who was taking his provisional coxswain ticket and had never sailed and a 53yr old Canadian who'd done some time as a deckhand on a shark fishing boat.. sail zero..
The owner assured me they were highly experienced before they joined.. mind that's what he'd said about himself... so I was expecting the worst..
If you think I'm gonna send folk like that on deck in a blow to do things your on LSD.. MOB is something I prefer to avoid.
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Then there's reality..
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:36   #212
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
You've obviously never done deliveries as a living... trained crew.. or even having a chance to train crew is fantasy land..
Cork to E Spain... one over weight German and a hard drinking CGaS Irishman... the German had served as a steward on a ship briefly, the Irishman had crossed a river on a ferry once.. owner insisted they crewed...
Vanuatu to Perth... 21yr old Aussie who was taking his provisional coxswain ticket and had never sailed and a 53yr old Canadian who'd done some time as a deckhand on a shark fishing boat.. sail zero..
The owner assured me they were highly experienced before they joined.. mind that's what he'd said about himself... so I was expecting the worst..
If you think I'm gonna send folk like that on deck in a blow to do things your on LSD.. MOB is something I prefer to avoid.
There's the perfection of your opinion...
Then there's reality..
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Boatman,

No I've never been a delivery skipper. But I do have a boat and I've sailed with friends and others as crew. Some are very talented sailors - some are not. Some I would never send on deck even in calm weather.

In the scenario you've sketched out above - you've done just exactly what I noted. You've assessed the capabilities of your crew and are utilizing them accordingly.

Ask any military person with field rank, or ask any corporate executive - knowing your resources and utilizing them to their maximum capabilities is the way to ensure success.

So we're not in disagreement. Let's assume you had Atoll or Evans Starzinger aboard as crew. You probably wouldn't hesitate to ask them to go on deck - but then they are more talented and have a greater set of skills than the crew you're described.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:06   #213
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Carsten... no offence intended..
in reality that's generally the crew I prefer.. nil experience
Just extra numbers to satisfy the insurers..
I'm a singlehander at heart so a watch keeper while I sleep who can stay awake to alert me of any dangers/weather for a couple of hours at a time is all I really need.
If owners were prepared to have solo skippers for their deliveries I'd be in heaven... beats me why they worry about crew when they've only liability insurance half the time..
Not sure Atoll would sail with me.. he knows me..
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:36   #214
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Carsten... no offence intended..
in reality that's generally the crew I prefer.. nil experience
Just extra numbers to satisfy the insurers..
I'm a singlehander at heart so a watch keeper while I sleep who can stay awake to alert me of any dangers/weather for a couple of hours at a time is all I really need.
If owners were prepared to have solo skippers for their deliveries I'd be in heaven... beats me why they worry about crew when they've only liability insurance half the time..
Not sure Atoll would sail with me.. he knows me..
No offense taken. You should run your boat as is best for you

I was merely pointing out that going on deck in inclement weather was not necessarily the Skippers job. I suspect that had I you on board in a bad blow, I'd be happy to send you up front (it takes a lot to kill weeds - old Danish saying)

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Old 02-05-2013, 03:51   #215
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Recall another story of a Lagoon cat crossing Tasman from Aust to NZ. Sat out a storm under sea anchor close to NZ no drama except crewpanic - thought they were going down.
That was my boat in 2008 long before I bought her.

It wasn't quite panic but the novice crew were badly seasick and the skipper was concerned for them. He had earlier deployed a para anchor, but I understand he was not really concerned for the boat's safety, but more for comfort.

He did a writeup for a magazine (seemed like a promotional for Para Anchors to me), but I can no longer find that link.

There are some NZ news links still around ... here's one with video which shows a video of the pickup (by a cruise ship). The seas still look a bit lumpy but not dangerous. Note that there are some inaccuracies in the story.

Sapphire Princess Rushed To The Aid Of Catamaran | Dunedin Television | Online
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Old 02-05-2013, 16:54   #216
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
That was my boat in 2008 long before I bought her.

It wasn't quite panic but the novice crew were badly seasick and the skipper was concerned for them. He had earlier deployed a para anchor, but I understand he was not really concerned for the boat's safety, but more for comfort.

He did a writeup for a magazine (seemed like a promotional for Para Anchors to me), but I can no longer find that link.

There are some NZ news links still around ... here's one with video which shows a video of the pickup (by a cruise ship). The seas still look a bit lumpy but not dangerous. Note that there are some inaccuracies in the story.

Sapphire Princess Rushed To The Aid Of Catamaran | Dunedin Television | Online
Hi Steve,

thanks for your comment. At least my memory of the article was not too far off. It was certainly a good advert for a storm anchor. The story would have been in either Cruising Helmsman or Australian Multihull World. If my filing system was better could probably find it.

Have you had your cat in similar conditions?

Sorry realise now you have just taken delivery of your Lagoon.

Cheers
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Old 02-05-2013, 23:45   #217
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I took delivery in October and spent a couple of months on a leisurely delivery from Brisbane to Central Coast, with the worst being a 2 meter chop. The para anchor was aboard when I bought it, but I have taken it off for now to save weight and space while I am doing various maintenance tasks.

I found the link but it no longer works. It was an article in Multihull World magazine, and I would guess probably around June 2008 edition. Fortunately I saved a PDF copy of the article. I will ask the magazine if it is OK to post here or if they can provide a workable link.

There were some good pointers in there valid for this thread. And now that I reread it, you were right about panic. The female crew member was in panic mode, and pleading to set off the EPIRB, while her husband was so sick he was "unresponsive".
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Old 03-05-2013, 00:29   #218
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

It's a serious consideration: when things go 'tits-up', having extra hands aboard can flip from an asset to a liability.

It's much more of a problem than three or four decades ago, but even then it was a problem.

And it's not necessarily the people you'd expect who turn out to be assets, or liabilities.

(It's sometimes a case of the "big rugby playing type who routinely faints in the dentist's chair" syndrome)

Fatigue has a hell of a lot to do with anxiety, and anxiety is (I think) generally a product of uncertainty times lack of preparation (of resources, both physical and mental).

And preparation --

if it results from good reflection and research (and, where possible, experience) --

can lead to reduced uncertainty,

and in turn to better-quality decision-making in a crisis: a virtuous spiral.

I personally think that the one thing which sinks boats and kills people more than circumstance or ill-fortune is poor-quality decision-making.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:44   #219
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Carsten... no offence intended..
in reality that's generally the crew I prefer.. nil experience
Just extra numbers to satisfy the insurers..
I'm a singlehander at heart so a watch keeper while I sleep who can stay awake to alert me of any dangers/weather for a couple of hours at a time is all I really need.
If owners were prepared to have solo skippers for their deliveries I'd be in heaven... beats me why they worry about crew when they've only liability insurance half the time..
Not sure Atoll would sail with me.. he knows me..
i'd sail with you.....as long as i could pick the salad girls and do the shopping
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:25   #220
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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i'd sail with you.....as long as i could pick the salad girls and do the shopping
I think I could tolerate that... you make a mean Spag Bol... and our taste in Salad's pretty similar...
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:38   #221
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

One thing I put a lot of effort into is trying to avoid demoralising living conditions.

One of the main battlefronts in this effort, for me, is a remorseless war on water. Bilge water, specifically.

And at or near the top of the list of useful weapons in this battle is the sort of industrial-grade "self-amalgamating", black rubbery tape used by professional electricians, among others.

(This is NOT the usual PVC insulating tape, although it, too, is a wonder material in other contexts).

It's a wonder material on boats, and the delivery skipper's friend, in particular.

I recall using up an entire roll to improvise a flexible 'gaiter' around the 16mm inner forestay where it disappeared into a 'navel pipe' of a converted maxi-racer, when we were faced with a wet passage from the subantarctic to NZ.

This was a boat which felt it would be undignified to go over waves; it routinely obliterated/atomised the top few metres, and inserted itself through whatever solid water remained.

The crew in the RTW race for which it was built had dubbed it the "Urban Wave Destroyer", and in cruising guise it weighed an extra 15 tonnes, at least, so it would be understating things to say it was not inclined to keep the foredeck particularly dry.

The reason why the inner forestay went below-decks was that it was tensioned by a hydraulic ram (which wouldn't have looked out of place on a Bobcat digger) bolted to the front of the mast step.

The demoralising effect of a mere few hundred residual litres of untrappable bilgewater on the previous leg had been a serious threat to our continued safety, as half those on board (including the owner) were comprehensively disabled by seasickness, and the rest of us had plenty of more productive things to do with our time.

A shallow-bilged racing hull can wet the bedding pretty comprehensively, even though we were not using the lower level bunks (this boat had about 20 bunks in all).

And the demoralising effects of bedding which is continually being moistened by a dilute solution of diesel oil in seawater are appreciable in temperate latitudes: in the deep Southern wastes in nasty weather, it becomes not funny.

In a dry anchorage before we set out, I wrapped a torn strip of towel, (I would have used a crepe bandage if I'd thought of it) around the wire first, just outboard of the turning block cum navel pipe, as an armature for the gaiter made from the black tape.

In this situation, it had to be able to accommodate some movement without tearing or leaking, and this is where the stuff is pure magic. (Also for temporary repair of leaking mast collars, mast wiring connector leaks, anchor chain pipe leaks, cracked ventilator cowls etc etc...)

I couldn't be sure this was the chief remaining source of the bilgewater on the previous leg (I'd fixed the really egregious ones en route, under circumstances which were 'amusing', to say the least), but it must have been, because we still had relatively dry bilges on arrival in NZ.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:54   #222
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I agree. That is why I have 4 rolls of the stuff on board at all times. With that and duct tape, you can fix almost anything



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
One thing I put a lot of effort into is trying to avoid demoralising living conditions.

One of the main battlefronts in this effort, for me, is a remorseless war on water. Bilge water, specifically.

And at or near the top of the list of useful weapons in this battle is the sort of industrial-grade "self-amalgamating", black rubbery tape used by professional electricians, among others.

(This is NOT the usual PVC insulating tape, although it, too, is a wonder material in other contexts).

It's a wonder material on boats, and the delivery skipper's friend, in particular.

I recall using up an entire roll to improvise a flexible 'gaiter' around the 16mm inner forestay where it disappeared into a 'navel pipe' of a converted maxi-racer, when we were faced with a wet passage from the subantarctic to NZ.

This was a boat which felt it would be undignified to go over waves; it routinely obliterated/atomised the top few metres, and inserted itself through whatever solid water remained.

The crew in the RTW race for which it was built had dubbed it the "Urban Wave Destroyer", and in cruising guise it weighed an extra 15 tonnes, at least, so it would be understating things to say it was not inclined to keep the foredeck particularly dry.

The reason why the inner forestay went below-decks was that it was tensioned by a hydraulic ram (which wouldn't have looked out of place on a Bobcat digger) bolted to the front of the mast step.

The demoralising effect of a mere few hundred residual litres of untrappable bilgewater on the previous leg had been a serious threat to our continued safety, as half those on board (including the owner) were comprehensively disabled by seasickness, and the rest of us had plenty of more productive things to do with our time.

A shallow-bilged racing hull can wet the bedding pretty comprehensively, even though we were not using the lower level bunks (this boat had about 20 bunks in all).

And the demoralising effects of bedding which is continually being moistened by a dilute solution of diesel oil in seawater are appreciable in temperate latitudes: in the deep Southern wastes in nasty weather, it becomes not funny.

In a dry anchorage before we set out, I wrapped a torn strip of towel, (I would have used a crepe bandage if I'd thought of it) around the wire first, just outboard of the turning block cum navel pipe, as an armature for the gaiter made from the black tape.

In this situation, it had to be able to accommodate some movement without tearing or leaking, and this is where the stuff is pure magic. (Also for temporary repair of leaking mast collars, mast wiring connector leaks, anchor chain pipe leaks, cracked ventilator cowls etc etc...)

I couldn't be sure this was the chief remaining source of the bilgewater on the previous leg (I'd fixed the really egregious ones en route, under circumstances which were 'amusing', to say the least), but it must have been, because we still had relatively dry bilges on arrival in NZ.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:15   #223
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

i think one of the big mistakes less experinced sailors make when weathering a storm is not carrying enough sail,and going bare poles long before it is nessasary.

i love the cutter rig and being able to carry 2 hanked storm jibs and a main with a 3rd reef ,providing 3"blades",that can be lowered and raised easily.

keeping some way on the vessel will also provide stability and greatly improve comfort levels inside.
bearing off a few degrees if you have sea room when the strongest winds come through will also make a noticable difference when all hell is breaking out.

good hot food is also a great morale booster,

as is a galley that you can cook in in any weather, i favour ones layed out in a "U" shape fore and aft, making it impossible to be thrown out of when cooking in rough conditions.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:14   #224
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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It wasn't.

That must have been a fun trip. @@
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:19   #225
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Carsten... no offence intended..
in reality that's generally the crew I prefer.. nil experience
Just extra numbers to satisfy the insurers..
I'm a singlehander at heart so a watch keeper while I sleep who can stay awake to alert me of any dangers/weather for a couple of hours at a time is all I really need.
If owners were prepared to have solo skippers for their deliveries I'd be in heaven... beats me why they worry about crew when they've only liability insurance half the time..
Not sure Atoll would sail with me.. he knows me..

I'm sure you're quite right about that (except out Atoll -- smile) -- No one is more unpredictable on a sailboat than an enthusiastic but inexperienced sailor. They've seen movies and they think they know what to do.

Especially leaving and returning from dock. They've seen people jump off of moving boats and think they should, too -- have no idea why they might be getting off the boat or what they'd do once they left, assuming they actually landed ON the dock and weren't hurt in the process.

I have it all worked out. One reason I don't let guests on my boat put the sail cover on while we're returning is that if they're doing that as I tie the boat off, they won't try to "help" dock the boat!
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