Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-09-2015, 18:02   #31
Registered User
 
RicknSue's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Cleveland, ohio
Boat: Pearson Ariel 26, Pearson 30
Posts: 136
Re: Starting Woes

Ok , I agree on one part - too much info is overloading the OP right now!! As soon as I read this , sounded easy to me - starter is bad - all engines need more amps to start hot and that's when a starter ( or maybe a bad circuit/ connection) will act up.
My a4 did this the last 2 years ( but of course being a mechanic so not ever fixing my own stuff) I just dumped some ice on the starter from the ice box to cool it off , then hit the starter button after a few minutes while tapping the end plate ( this stops the short through the stator that's being caused by the worn starter bushings) .. And TaDa off it fires .. Well until it finally quit for real and I HAD to fix it ... (Different story)
The clue is the ammeter going negative and no sound - it's showing you the load is being applied and going somewhere ( which it wouldn't with a bad connection) .. The current is flowing as normal , but straight throught the starter rather than producing the movement it should .
I'm assuming you painted the starter yellow, after the solenoid was replaced and the starter rebuilt? If you didn't and it came back to you like that, I would find a new rebuilder - or even better - find the manufacturer stamping number on the main body and do a search for the parts or a whole unit from an auto parts store. As comparison - the delco off an A4 - $16 rebuild kits on the web , $65 from NAPA with a 5 year warranty ( or a crazy amount of money from a marine place - same parts .
I'm just saying , I've probably installed a hundred rebuilt starters in my career and Never seen a rebuilder paint the stator strap ( that's the big wire coming out of the case) ..

Hope this helps
__________________

__________________
RicknSue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2015, 18:29   #32
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Starting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicknSue View Post
Ok , I agree on one part - too much info is overloading the OP right now!! As soon as I read this , sounded easy to me - starter is bad - all engines need more amps to start hot and that's when a starter ( or maybe a bad circuit/ connection) will act up.
My a4 did this the last 2 years ( but of course being a mechanic so not ever fixing my own stuff) I just dumped some ice on the starter from the ice box to cool it off , then hit the starter button after a few minutes while tapping the end plate ( this stops the short through the stator that's being caused by the worn starter bushings) .. And TaDa off it fires .. Well until it finally quit for real and I HAD to fix it ... (Different story)
The clue is the ammeter going negative and no sound - it's showing you the load is being applied and going somewhere ( which it wouldn't with a bad connection) .. The current is flowing as normal , but straight throught the starter rather than producing the movement it should .
I'm assuming you painted the starter yellow, after the solenoid was replaced and the starter rebuilt? If you didn't and it came back to you like that, I would find a new rebuilder - or even better - find the manufacturer stamping number on the main body and do a search for the parts or a whole unit from an auto parts store. As comparison - the delco off an A4 - $16 rebuild kits on the web , $65 from NAPA with a 5 year warranty ( or a crazy amount of money from a marine place - same parts .
I'm just saying , I've probably installed a hundred rebuilt starters in my career and Never seen a rebuilder paint the stator strap ( that's the big wire coming out of the case) ..

Hope this helps
While this is possible explanation, it isn't the only reason the ammeter could be showing a discharge. As per the circuit the OP posted (#4), the glow plugs are activated as soon as the start switch is operated and they use a separate set of NO contacts and other wiring to operate the glow plug relay.

And it is unusual for the ammeter to be part of the "heavy side" of the starter motor circuit.
And why would the starter motor be considered hot after a days sailing.

Nevertheless it is a possibility and at this stage, all ideas are good
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2015, 10:32   #33
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nevada City. CA
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 3,745
Images: 9
Re: Starting Woes

I know it seems a bit confusing but I stand by doing a voltage drop test. the test would be a lot easier with a remote starter. I bought a cheap one from harbor freight. 12 Volt Remote Starter Switch

Step 1) Close seacock and turn off fuel supply.

2) Connect multimeter(DMM) from negative battery post to engine ground. Turn key to start engine. If there is over one amp drop on the meter that is a significant drop. Clean all connections and retest.

3) Connect DMM from positive battery post to positive connection on starter. Spin (or try to spin) the starter. Read the meter. If there is over one amp drop clean all connections and retest.

This is a simplified version but it will track down if/where there is voltage drop. HF also sells inexpensive jumper leads which are helpful for extending the reach of your DMM. Once again I think Caulder's tests should help you. It seems overwhelming but I think you should be able to figure out the problem with perserverence and patience. Good luck Greg.
__________________
Fair Winds,

Charlie

Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
Joseph Conrad
Charlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2015, 16:21   #34
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Starting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
I know it seems a bit confusing but I stand by doing a voltage drop test. the test would be a lot easier with a remote starter. I bought a cheap one from harbor freight. 12 Volt Remote Starter Switch

Step 1) Close seacock and turn off fuel supply.

2) Connect multimeter(DMM) from negative battery post to engine ground. Turn key to start engine. If there is over one amp volt drop on the meter that is a significant drop. Clean all connections and retest.

3) Connect DMM from positive battery post to positive connection on starter. Spin (or try to spin) the starter. Read the meter. If there is over one amp volt drop clean all connections and retest.

This is a simplified version but it will track down if/where there is voltage drop. HF also sells inexpensive jumper leads which are helpful for extending the reach of your DMM. Once again I think Caulder's tests should help you. It seems overwhelming but I think you should be able to figure out the problem with perserverence and patience. Good luck Greg.
Well Charlie, it was confusing but I fixed it for you
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2015, 17:46   #35
Registered User
 
Jacknast's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: usa
Boat: 32 Endeavour
Posts: 67
Re: Starting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
Hi Greg:

I think what you need to do is to do a voltage drop test on your system. It sounds a lot more complicated then it is. You will need a digital Multimeter (DMM). First measure the voltage across the posts of the battery. If the battery checks fine then check from the negative post to a known ground on the battery. remember 2x4. I forget if this is correct but the negative side should have no more then .2v of drop and the positive side shuld have no more then .4v of drop. The next test is from the positive post of the battery to the positive lug on the starter. By performing these tests on all the connections you will be able to find where/if the voltage drop is located. Here is a good basic video on it Also you can look in Nigel Calder's book on how to perform the test.
awesome video. Learning a great deal from this thread. Thanks for your knowledge, all.
__________________
Get off my lawn, you!
Jacknast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2015, 17:50   #36
Registered User
 
Jacknast's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: usa
Boat: 32 Endeavour
Posts: 67
Re: Starting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
I know it seems a bit confusing but I stand by doing a voltage drop test. the test would be a lot easier with a remote starter. I bought a cheap one from harbor freight. 12 Volt Remote Starter Switch

Step 1) Close seacock and turn off fuel supply.

2) Connect multimeter(DMM) from negative battery post to engine ground. Turn key to start engine. If there is over one amp drop on the meter that is a significant drop. Clean all connections and retest.

3) Connect DMM from positive battery post to positive connection on starter. Spin (or try to spin) the starter. Read the meter. If there is over one amp drop clean all connections and retest.

This is a simplified version but it will track down if/where there is voltage drop. HF also sells inexpensive jumper leads which are helpful for extending the reach of your DMM. Once again I think Caulder's tests should help you. It seems overwhelming but I think you should be able to figure out the problem with perserverence and patience. Good luck Greg.
What's cool is that this technique can be used to troubleshoot a whole lot more in your system, should the need arise. shortfall, you need 5 hands and looongg arms.
__________________
Get off my lawn, you!
Jacknast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2015, 19:17   #37
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nevada City. CA
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 3,745
Images: 9
Re: Starting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Well Charlie, it was confusing but I fixed it for you
Thanks Wotname you are dead on right!!! My Bad
__________________
Fair Winds,

Charlie

Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
Joseph Conrad
Charlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2015, 19:19   #38
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nevada City. CA
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 3,745
Images: 9
Re: Starting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknast View Post
What's cool is that this technique can be used to troubleshoot a whole lot more in your system, should the need arise. shortfall, you need 5 hands and looongg arms.
These really come in handy if you don't have a second person.
__________________
Fair Winds,

Charlie

Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
Joseph Conrad
Charlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2015, 05:24   #39
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Starting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
Thanks Wotname you are dead on right!!! My Bad
No problem
And it was only a small hiccup compared to my brain fart back in post 6
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2015, 08:03   #40
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Starting Woes

Has there been any resolution to this problem?
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 14:14   #41
Senior Cruiser
 
SkiprJohn's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kea'au, Big Island, Hawaii
Boat: Cascade, Sloop, 42 - "Casual"
Posts: 14,192
Re: Starting Woes

This is a thread stretch but applicable I believe. I had this same very perplexing problem happen to my Saturn SL2. It was a continuing problem over a couple of years. Of course it didn't have glow plugs.

I turned the key to start but no click, no nothing and very intermittently and the problem would stop for months at a time. The problem would not occur for my mechanic and he thought I was nuts. He is probably right.

I finally took note when it happened the next time that the voltage would drop when I turned the key to start but got nothing. I told the mechanic to change the starter and a bunch of money later the problem was solved. Now I regret buying a newer car. The Saturn got me as much as 43 mpg.
__________________

__________________
John
SkiprJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yanmar starting woes jimbim Engines and Propulsion Systems 4 05-08-2012 08:01
Perkins 4-236 Starting Woes Hawkswood Engines and Propulsion Systems 14 24-04-2010 21:15
Help! Prop shaft woes svwhisper Construction, Maintenance & Refit 14 17-11-2006 16:12
Engine idle woes-Will not idle after warm Pa La O La Engines and Propulsion Systems 5 24-09-2006 13:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.