Visit our Popular Forums

Exile · 11-01-2019, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by coopec43

Scott

OK for someone like you with an understanding of electronics!

I don't want to go to university to get a degree so I can understand the yacht electronics. I want something simple/logical to understand and it doesn't have to be foolproof because I'll keep fools off the yacht. (I'll have a check list of things to do as I leave the yacht and another list for when I come back on board)

I would most certainly hope the solar panels would keep the batteries charged while I'm off the yacht. (Of course I'd keep a wary eye on the weather)

And what's a "reefer"? Geeez! Don't worry I'll try to google it (Maybe the house bank batteries?)

Clive

Refrigerator/Freezer.

sainted · 11-01-2019, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by coopec43

Scot

OK for someone like you with an understanding of electronics!

I don't want to go to university to get a degree so I can understand the yacht electronics. I want something simple/logical to understand and it doesn't have to be foolproof because I'll keep fools off the yacht.

I would most certainly hope the solar panels would keep the batteries charged while I'm off the yacht. (Of course I'd keep a wary eye on the weather)

And what's a "reefer"? Geeez! Don't worry I'll try to google it (Maybe the house bank batteries?)

Clive

Clive,

Reefer = refrigerator or marijuana cigarette depending on the context.

And,yeah, I like having my boat set up so I don't have to switch things on and off depending on the situation. I have an inverter/charger on my Jammin, and its left in the inverter off, charger on state all the time unless I am on the hook and want to watch TV (or something). That way if I loose mains power and aren't around, the TV and stereo and microwave won't run my batteries down just sittin' there with their little pilot lights on.

Scott

Exile · 11-01-2019, 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by sainted

Well, yes, you can treat the inverter as just another power source (like a genset or the mains) on a transfer switch (say, "shore, off, gen, invert), but that defeats having the inverter output only service the ship's outlets. And that's the idea: you want the inverter serving only low wattage (PC charger, coffee grinder) or high wattage/short usage (microwave, hair drier) appliances. You do that by segregating the high watt stuff from the outlets and then letting the inverter jump in to supply the outlets when mains or genset power isn't available. That's why inverts have built in transfer switches.

Scott

I was thinking more of the separate charger & inverter installation which I would probably opt for personally. But you're right in that it doesn't accomplish segregating out the low wattage outlets. I guess I just like the idea of always being on top of my power source, and when I'm away from the dock I typically have no need for high wattage appliances such as A/C. If/when I do, I can always run the genset.

SailRedemption · 12-01-2019, 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile

Scott -- Could this also be accomplished with a main Ship-Shore-Off switch (for boats with dedicated gensets) which has a 4th pole for an Inverter? I've seen them for sale. It doesn't solve the problem of inadvertently turning on a high output appliance such as A/C when on inverter/battery power only, but presumably that would throw a breaker with no harm done. You could also just wire the inverter into the "Ship" pole along with the genset I suppose, but that could increase the chance of someone running down batteries.

I actually like the idea of less automation when it comes to onboard power delivery, but that's just personal preference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile

I was thinking more of the separate charger & inverter installation which I would probably opt for personally. But you're right in that it doesn't accomplish segregating out the low wattage outlets. I guess I just like the idea of always being on top of my power source, and when I'm away from the dock I typically have no need for high wattage appliances such as A/C. If/when I do, I can always run the genset.

This is what I am wanting to do. A separate charger and inverter. If I want the inverter away from the dock, turn off the shore breaker on panel and turn on inverter breaker. Turn on DC breaker to inverter and voila power to outlets. The panel bus would be cut so the outlets would be separate from the higher loads(water heater, and two battery chargers). The shore double pole breaker would supply all loads(both busses) and the inverter double pole would supply only the outlets. These would have a lockout slide to keep from having both breakers on.

Is this sound, safe and possible, Scott?

coopec43 · 12-01-2019, 04:51

I am not sure what you guys mean by:

But you're right in that it doesn't accomplish segregating out the low wattage outlets.

My 3000W/6000W has three power point outlets. But I have it permanently wired those to the

HWS/Washing Machine
Galley -coffee machine, beater. small jug, small toaster?
Microwave
Bread-maker, vacuum cleaner

(I'll have to use one two-way adapter to go from 3 to 4)

I'll have to manage the loads in my head. Now where does "segregating out the low wattage outlets." become relevant?

Exile · 12-01-2019, 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by coopec43

I am not sure what you guys mean by:

But you're right in that it doesn't accomplish segregating out the low wattage outlets.

My 3000W/6000W has three power point outlets. But I have it permanently wired those to the

HWS/Washing Machine
Galley -coffee machine, beater. small jug, small toaster?
Microwave
Bread-maker, vacuum cleaner

(I'll have to use one two-way adapter to go from 3 to 4)

I'll have to manage the loads in my head. Now where does "segregating out the low wattage outlets." become relevant?

When you have the inverter wired into your boat's main electrical panel as opposed to directly wired into individual appliances. Some of those appliances -- aircon, hot w/h (maybe) -- draw too much amperage to run off the inverter. So if the inverter is only tied into the onboard AC outlets, things like toasters, hair dryers, bread makers, etc. that are normally plugged in can be safely run w/o the risk of someone inadvertently turning on aircon (for e.g.) to run off the inverter.

smac999 · 12-01-2019, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

This is what I am wanting to do. A separate charger and inverter. If I want the inverter away from the dock, turn off the shore breaker on panel and turn on inverter breaker. Turn on DC breaker to inverter and voila power to outlets. The panel bus would be cut so the outlets would be separate from the higher loads(water heater, and two battery chargers). The shore double pole breaker would supply all loads(both busses) and the inverter double pole would supply only the outlets. These would have a lockout slide to keep from having both breakers on.

Is this sound, safe and possible, Scott?

That is not possible to feed different loads like that. from a pair of breakers. Impossible to spilt the output . Without additional switches.

With a 3 pole rotary switch you could do it.

One pole neutral. Shore hot 2 poles jumpeted. At input. Separate outputs to inverter and shore bus. inverter in only 1 pole. Going only to inverter output pole

Exile · 12-01-2019, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by smac999

That is not possible to feed different loads like that. from a pair of breakers. Impossible to spilt the output . Without additional switches.

With a 3 pole rotary switch you could do it.

One pole neutral. Shore hot 2 poles jumpeted. At input. Separate outputs to inverter and shore bus. inverter in only 1 pole. Going only to inverter output pole

I gather you mean one of these?

smac999 · 12-01-2019, 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by sainted

As a marine electrician, I have to say that I hate it when folks wire ALL of their AC loads thru the inverter. Why? Because that makes it a single point of failure for the entire AC electrical system, and because you have to manually manage any high wattage loads (like the water heater you mention).

That's why the installation manuals on all inverters I've installed recommend putting the inverter/charger on a dedicated 30 amp breaker on the main distribution panel and then connecting the output of the inverter to the breakers that protect/supply the outlet circuits on the boat. Doing so would exclude any high wattage appliances such as water heaters, air conditioners and so on.

In this way when mains power is present (plugged into shore power), the inverter just passes power thru its internal transfer switch to the outlets. If mains power is lost, the inverter will automatically start supplying power to the outlets (if there are any loads on 'em).

Just my 2 cents.

Scott

technology has changed. and there is many advantages of running everything through the inverter. manual bypass switches should be installed in-cause of total failure.

the victrons as he mentioned especially. the multis have dual outputs. so they split the inverter and non inverter loads for you right at the inverter.

one of the main advantages of an inverter / charger over separate units is charger load shedding. most if not all do this. as the AC loads get closer to 30a, the charger reduces power and keeps you under 30a. (IE charging at 100a dc, 16a AC, turn on the mircowave for 1 min while running the HWT, charger cuts down to 10a durring that 1 min, then goes back to 100a after) this function is only possible if all loads can be measured by the inverter. if the HWT is before the inverter, you just blew the dock breaker. same with the boosting functions which a few inverters have. if the charger shuts off and you are still over 30a, the inverter will kick in and supply the difference, once again, only possible if the inverter can measure all loads. the victrons are good for this, the magnum hybrids fail at this.

if you have a standard non boosting inverter with only a single output, then yes you are splitting the bus and feeding the inverter after the big loads.

Quote:

What would happen, for example, if you neglected to turn off the inverter function (charge only), left the boat for a few days, and the power failed. What would happen is that the inverter would merrily heat water until the batteries died.

the inverter button needs to be left off while away. most inverters have the ability to leave charger on and turn off the inverter. victron, magnum, xantrax etc.

the pro mariners do not, so never buy one of those...

around here plug in heaters are used 6 months a year plugged in outlets of every boat tied to a dock. even if the "high loads" are taken off inverter, you still have high loads on the inverted outlets. unless you start putting inverted and non inverted sets of outlets in, there is no getting around that, so just don't forget to turn it off.... or you learn your lesson real fast when you replace all the batteries.

smac999 · 12-01-2019, 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exile

I gather you mean one of these?

if it is 3 pole. (designed for 240v)

smac999 · 12-01-2019, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

You may be overdoing it. The inverter charger, as long as you feed AC to it directly and only use AC from it, is an isolation transformer in itself. The ELCI, I guess it is always useful but few bots have them.

SV Pizzazz

how is it an iso transformer? on shore power it's just an internal swtich that connects the input to the output... 0 isolation.

it's isolated if you unplug the shore power and invert...

ELCI is now ABCY code. every new boat should have one, and any boat being refited.
no I do not see many either, because nobody can afford new boats...

I think you will also need a 30a main breaker on the transformer secondary, Between transformer and inverter) but I could be wrong, it might only be needed for 240v. would not need to be elci.
edit, never mind, only for 240v

SailRedemption · 12-01-2019, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by smac999

That is not possible to feed different loads like that. from a pair of breakers. Impossible to spilt the output . Without additional switches.

With a 3 pole rotary switch you could do it.

One pole neutral. Shore hot 2 poles jumpeted. At input. Separate outputs to inverter and shore bus. inverter in only 1 pole. Going only to inverter output pole

Can you elaborate on that last part? Is the new code 3 pole break now?

smac999 · 12-01-2019, 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

Can you elaborate on that last part? Is the new code 3 pole break now?

read his question. then try to draw a diagram to do it..

a 3 pole rotary swtich is one way. (shore still needs main breaker) their may be other ways too. but twin double pole breakers with lockout alone will not do what he wants.. all loads would still be inverted.