450: PHRF Rating?

[Houston450]

We are planning on entering Brie in the Harvest Moon Regatta this year in Texas. 150 miles SW from Galveston to Corpus.

Does anyone know if there's an established Phrf rating for Lagoon 450F? It has a square top main, code 0, maybe a kite and the mast has been shortened to clear a local bridge to 70' above the water.

Thanks!

Chris

[Aupalukii]

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[Jim Cate]

Does PHRF even rate multihulls? Can't recall ever seeing such. It would be interesting to me, as it might put some data in the who is fastest arguments!

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Does PHRF even rate multihulls? Can't recall ever seeing such. It would be interesting to me, as it might put some data in the who is fastest arguments!

Jim

Yes, they rate multihulls. my last two boats were rated in the low 60's. go to the ussailing website.

i'll see if I can find the link.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Aupalukii

Attachment 129891


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If I'm not mistaken, that set of TCFs is for one specific year of the Istion Catamarans Cup in Greece. FLEET RATINGS

OMR/Texel/Multi2000 is the generally accepted method method of rating multihulls in many countries.
(Of course, the US does it differently )

See History & Modifications - Texelrating

There is also a spreadsheet which can be used for un-measured boats:
http://www.texelrating.org/site/file...bin_unmeas.xls

[gjorgensen]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yes, they rate multihulls. my last two boats were rated in the low 60's. go to the ussailing website.

i'll see if I can find the link.

It depends on the region. For example, PHRF Southern California and PHRF San Diego will not rate multihulls. I know - I was chairman a few years ago. Some regions will. Also, in some areas PHRF-compatible handicaps are issued by clubs for one race only. I see a Galveston Cruising Club that lists a Lagoon 450F at PHRF 0.

The NOR for this race says that multihulls are rated by TOMA, not PHRF. I can't find a link for TOMA but there is an email address for info in the NOR.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by gjorgensen

The NOR for this race says that multihulls are rated by TOMA, not PHRF. I can't find a link for TOMA but there is an email address for info in the NOR.

TOMA = Texas Offshore Multihull Association.

i.e a State organisation.

They don't appear to have a website, but do have a Yahoo group
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...ultihulls/info

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Does PHRF even rate multihulls? Can't recall ever seeing such. It would be interesting to me, as it might put some data in the who is fastest arguments!

Jim

PHRF | United States Sailing Association

"The United States Performance Handicap Racing Fleet Committee (USPHRF) is a technical rule committee of US Sailing that promotes performance handicap racing for monohull and multihull sailing yachts applying the PHRF® rule."

[gjorgensen]

Originally Posted by StuM

PHRF | United States Sailing Association

"The United States Performance Handicap Racing Fleet Committee (USPHRF) is a technical rule committee of US Sailing that promotes performance handicap racing for monohull and multihull sailing yachts applying the PHRF® rule."

The thing to understand is that the US Sailing PHRF body is there to interpret rules and provide advice, but does not issue handicaps or enforce consistency. PHRF handicaps are issued uniquely by the local PHRF handicapping associations, each of which are individually chartered and/or incorporated. Each local PHRF association has its own charter and its own bylaws and rules, and issues handicaps for its region which are generally not transferable anywhere else and which may be different than other regions. Each year US Sailing publishes a book, sent to the all the PHRF associations, which list the handicaps for each boat type in each region. My boat make, for example, varies anywhere from 48 to 57 across the country, and in fact has a different handicap for So Cal vs San Diego.

Whether multihulls, dinghys, etc. will be rated at all by PHRF will depend on the region. As I said above, out here they will not issue handicaps, but in some regions they do. You just have to check. Out here ORCA handles handicaps for multihulls.

As an aside, I saw that handicap of 0 issued for a Lagoon 450F. I've only sailed on a Lagoon 450 once, but I'm pretty confident it will never be able to sail to a handicap of 0. To give you an idea, J160s, J125s, and Santa Cruz 50's usually rate around there depending on configuration.

[Houston450]

Assuming a zero rating is wrong, with what j boat should a 450f be able to hold point and speed upwind? Downwind non spin? Spin? Has anyone lined up with a common 1 design and tuned?

Thanks for all the answers!

Chris

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by gjorgensen

The thing to understand is that the US Sailing PHRF body is there to interpret rules and provide advice, but does not issue handicaps or enforce consistency. PHRF handicaps are issued uniquely by the local PHRF handicapping associations, each of which are individually chartered and/or incorporated. Each local PHRF association has its own charter and its own bylaws and rules, and issues handicaps for its region which are generally not transferable anywhere else and which may be different than other regions. Each year US Sailing publishes a book, sent to the all the PHRF associations, which list the handicaps for each boat type in each region. My boat make, for example, varies anywhere from 48 to 57 across the country, and in fact has a different handicap for So Cal vs San Diego.

Whether multihulls, dinghys, etc. will be rated at all by PHRF will depend on the region. As I said above, out here they will not issue handicaps, but in some regions they do. You just have to check. Out here ORCA handles handicaps for multihulls.

As an aside, I saw that handicap of 0 issued for a Lagoon 450F. I've only sailed on a Lagoon 450 once, but I'm pretty confident it will never be able to sail to a handicap of 0. To give you an idea, J160s, J125s, and Santa Cruz 50's usually rate around there depending on configuration.

My point about going to the ussailing website was that they used to have a listing of handicaps for multihulls and monohulls (possibly the Portsmouth Yardstick) where we would go every year to check the rating of our boats. It's still on the site under Offshore under the racing tab but I couldnt verify it's the same listing I used to use.

I didn't have a log in to check on it

I used to also use it to see which boats (monohulls) when properly sailed could compete boat for boat against another

[gjorgensen]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I used to also use it to see which boats (monohulls) when properly sailed could compete boat for boat against another

Cool, that may be what used to be in the yearly book they published. That would be the big collection from all the individual PHRF bodies. I've been off the PHRF boards for about 6 years now so I'm not up on the latest. PHRF is massively inconsistent, but in some sense they intend that so that the ratings (in theory) more closely match each location.

[gjorgensen]

Originally Posted by Houston450

Assuming a zero rating is wrong, with what j boat should a 450f be able to hold point and speed upwind? Downwind non spin? Spin? Has anyone lined up with a common 1 design and tuned?

Thanks for all the answers!

Chris

It's not really that simple unfortunately. A primary reason most PHRF associations don't rate multihulls is that the entire way they perform across wind speeds and across apparent wind angles is so different from monohulls that it's nearly impossible to compare them. Multihulls are almost always put in their own sections for that reason. That's not the only reason they often don't get rated, but it's one of the main ones.

So, it'll depend on the wind speed you're rating for and the typical wind angles of the course. Here in So Cal PHRF gives a 3 number rating, one number for W/L (buoy), one for random leg courses (RLC), and one for races normally 80% or more offwind (OWC). We also rate for 8-12 knots of wind.

In those wind conditions I'd expect the buoy rating of a Lagoon 450 to be pretty slow. It's a very heavy boat and won't point particularly well in light air. I'd guess it's maybe a 70-80 rater, maybe a bit faster. Random leg should be a bit better because it'll reach and broad reach ok (with a spinnaker), but still in those winds I'd say it's maybe a 60-ish rater, or a minute per mile slower than 0. That said, in random leg the Lagoon will pick up a lot more speed with wind strength than a monohull, so if you handicapped for 18-22 knots of wind it might be a 30 rater roughly. These are total guesses though, so don't quote me on them. FYI, I have no idea how ORCA or TOMA handicap.

[donhodd]

Does anyone know what the phrf rating would be for a Dean 400 catamaran.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by donhodd

Does anyone know what the phrf rating would be for a Dean 400 catamaran.

No.



Did you read the preceding discussion?
That would explain the answer.