440: lagoon 440 repair- big hole in hull

[Tricolor]

Originally Posted by florentin

..............there is no tax on the charter revenue in some countries, like Greece for example..............

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Greece

Icome taxatition Greece - Self-employed or contractors

The basic social security contributions amount to the 27.1% of total income (after VAT paid, qualified expenses deducted and before income tax paid).

This number can broken down to 20.0% for public pension funding and 7.1% for the public health system.
An extra 7.0% is charged for people enlisted to added benefits public pension schemes.

An extra 4.0% is charged for people enlisted to retirement bonuses public schemes.

Thus the total contributions can go as high as 38.1% of income.
Income range for calculation of Social security tax is 4,923 - 70,330 EUR per year.

If annual income is out of the range above, the lower/higher limits respectively will be considered for calculation.
Especially for agriculture professionals, the basic contribution of 27.1% will be lower until 2021, as follows:

21.1% in 2017
23.1% in 2018
25.1% in 2019
26.1% in 2020
26.6% in 2021
27.1% in 2022+

Especially for doctors, pharmacists, engineers, lawyers and economists, the total contribution of 27.1-38.1% will be 5-50% lower until 31/12/2020, as follows:

For total income 0-7,000 EUR 0% lower
For total income 7,000-13,000 EUR 50% lower
For total income 13,000-14,000 EUR 49% lower
For total income 14,000-15,000 EUR 48% lower
...
For total income 56,000-57,000 EUR 6% lower
For total income 57,000-58,000 EUR 5% lower
For total income 58,000+ 0% lower

[florentin]

Originally Posted by Tricolor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Greece

Icome taxatition Greece - Self-employed or contractors

The basic social security contributions amount to the 27.1% of total income (after VAT paid, qualified expenses deducted and before income tax paid).

This number can broken down to 20.0% for public pension funding and 7.1% for the public health system.
An extra 7.0% is charged for people enlisted to added benefits public pension schemes.

An extra 4.0% is charged for people enlisted to retirement bonuses public schemes.

Thus the total contributions can go as high as 38.1% of income.
Income range for calculation of Social security tax is 4,923 - 70,330 EUR per year.

If annual income is out of the range above, the lower/higher limits respectively will be considered for calculation.
Especially for agriculture professionals, the basic contribution of 27.1% will be lower until 2021, as follows:

21.1% in 2017
23.1% in 2018
25.1% in 2019
26.1% in 2020
26.6% in 2021
27.1% in 2022+

Especially for doctors, pharmacists, engineers, lawyers and economists, the total contribution of 27.1-38.1% will be 5-50% lower until 31/12/2020, as follows:

For total income 0-7,000 EUR 0% lower
For total income 7,000-13,000 EUR 50% lower
For total income 13,000-14,000 EUR 49% lower
For total income 14,000-15,000 EUR 48% lower
...
For total income 56,000-57,000 EUR 6% lower
For total income 57,000-58,000 EUR 5% lower
For total income 58,000+ 0% lower

hi,
this is from a well known lawyer house in Athens :
'"The most important benefits accrued from registering a Greek-owned commercial yacht at the Greek Registry are as follows:

1 All profits/income are taxed at 0%.
2 Yacht is VAT-exempt.
3 Discounted marina/mooring fees.
4 Charter Licence is renewed every 3 years.
5 All Greek- flagged yachts up to 24 meters may be bareboat chartered.
6 Fuel is purchased net of VAT/local taxes.
7 VAT on charter fees is only 12% or 24% if the charter lasts less than 48 hours (payable by the charterers)."
https://www.korovinislaw.gr/en/news-...ime-is-to-lose
so do your homework

[ozsailer]

Hello Florotin,
I commented on this post very early and really did not take a close look at the photos. I had a second look today and realised that one of the photos is of the boat on a haulout trolley where it appears that it has just been hauled out of the water. This to me strongly suggests to me that part of the boat has been submerged at some time given the circumstances as depicted in the photo unless you can spread further light on this.
I am even more convinced that you should run away from this vessel as I have no doubt the project would not only be to repair the hole but lead to replacement of much of the timber work and electrics as well as a lot of the mechanics including the motor in the that hull. If you want to persist I would be finding the best expert I could and getting an estimate but I fear there would be a lot of unknown issues as you would progress.
Just my two cent worth.


Greg H
Lagoon 410

[valhalla360]

This sounds fairly typical.
- OP asks if it can be done, presumably because he doesn't have the experience/knowledge.
- OP is warned it's not a easy as it sounds.
- OP starts explaining how he does know it can be done...

Which leads to the question of why he even asked other than to have people say yes.

Technologically, it can be done. As an amateur, I give it a 1-100 chance of being completed and if completed, I give it a 1-1000 chance of turning out cheaper in the long run compared to just buying a functional boat.

[boatman61]

So you reckon it will cost him around 200K to fix.. cant see that.. especially as he wants it for a dive boat..
Just get the hull and internal supports sorted then get her working and sort the furniture off season.
If the damage is limited to the stren on one side he still has a good saloon and hull once shes seaworthy.
Never hurts to ask alledgedly experienced folks their opinions.. then come to a conclusion after considering the responses.. the intelligent and the negative with no basis.

[danielamartindm]

Was that hurricane damage?

[flee27]

A great discussion to get one thinking but like most gambling there is no guarantees. You pay you money and takes your chances...


No one will know the answer until after all is said and one. If this project goes down I would definitely love to see updates posted along the way.


Good luck if you go for it.

[SteveSadler]

Given what the the boat is worth in good shape, your access to reasonable skilled labor,
and that you have a business plan to pay for it, I believe you have a winner.
You're not the first guy to buy a project boat and see it thru to the end, saving big money along the way. I've worked in the charter boat business for many years and have rejuvinated many a vessel with worse problems than this. GRP repairs aren't rocket science. Jump on it it, see it thru,
and you will score big in the end

[florentin]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This sounds fairly typical.
- OP asks if it can be done, presumably because he doesn't have the experience/knowledge.
- OP is warned it's not a easy as it sounds.
- OP starts explaining how he does know it can be done...

Which leads to the question of why he even asked other than to have people say yes.

Technologically, it can be done. As an amateur, I give it a 1-100 chance of being completed and if completed, I give it a 1-1000 chance of turning out cheaper in the long run compared to just buying a functional boat.

It does not matter whether some say it s possible, and some say it s not; what counts is the value of the arguments on which opinions are built; I could do without the cheap talk...your presumptions are based on what?

regards,

[florentin]

Originally Posted by flee27

A great discussion to get one thinking but like most gambling there is no guarantees. You pay you money and takes your chances...


No one will know the answer until after all is said and one. If this project goes down I would definitely love to see updates posted along the way.


Good luck if you go for it.

thanks

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by florentin

It does not matter whether some say it s possible, and some say it s not; what counts is the value of the arguments on which opinions are built; I could do without the cheap talk...your presumptions are based on what?

regards,

Here's an opinion from someone that has owned, repaired and maintained boats for over 40 years. I've owned steel, wood and fiberglass, power and sail from 18' to 63'. I've owned two major project boats, both requiring a lot less work than the one you propose.

The last boat the hull structure was basically sound but I needed to do a lot of rewiring, plumbing, engine work, woodwork and cabinetry. Working an average of 2 evenings per week after work and 2 weekends per month I worked on the boat for seven years.

Discounting new gear and upgrades that one might buy for any boat (sails, new pumps and hoses, alternator, starter, standing and running rigging, etc) I spent around $15,000.

- If the boat had needed major structural work it would have been triple that.
- If I had devoted every spare minute to the job might have finished in two years.
- I had a free place to keep the boat while working on it. If you have to pay a yard figure another $200-$400 per month. That could easily add another $10,000 to your cost.

I went into this knowing it would take a few years but:

1. I was still working full time and couldn't go cruising anyway.
2. When done I would have a boat in much better condition than any used boat I could have afforded.

AND the biggest point and the only one that I can see would make the Lagoon work for you, it allowed me to spread the cost over a few years so didn't have to come out of pocket all at once.

I have been there and done that, more than once, and I can guarantee you that this project will take more time and money than you can guess. The rule of thumb which I have seen proven accurate many times, it will cost you twice and much and take twice as long as you estimate. It sounds amusing but this is not a joke. You can take it to the bank. I've proven it myself and seen it confirmed by numerous other boaters I've run into over the years.

Without seeing the boat in person no one can give an accurate assessment but I would give it 95% certainty that with the damage seen in the photo everything in that part of the boat is bent, warped, cracked or knocked loose. You smash a major structural part of a boat and everything that is attached to it is going to get pushed around. If the boat was partially sunk or open to wind, rain and weather then a lot more stuff is going to be damaged.

Bottom line:

1. Yes the boat can be made as good as new BUT at what cost in time and money? It will be more than you think; a lot more, I guarantee.

2. It might be made good enough for less but???

3. The only way this will make sense on any practical basis will be

- you only have so much to spend now
AND
- you are able to feed money into the project a few thousand at a time, a few times a year for a few years.
AND
- you don't have to work a full time job OR your full time job pays very little so you will never be able to save up enough to buy a working boat.

You will also need a place close to home that isn't too expensive where you can keep and work on the boat for a few years.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Bottom line:

1. Yes the boat can be made as good as new BUT at what cost in time and money? It will be more than you think; a lot more, I guarantee.

2. It might be made good enough for less but???

3. The only way this will make sense on any practical basis will be

- you only have so much to spend now
AND
- you are able to feed money into the project a few thousand at a time, a few times a year for a few years.
AND
- you don't have to work a full time job OR your full time job pays very little so you will never be able to save up enough to buy a working boat.

I have big surprise for you. This "damage" was repaired in 124 days. By far more damage than OP. Boat "broke" in half! And if someone thinks that boat in OP has more damage - let's cut it in half, so damage will be comparable!
Just like I said - if it starts "I have full time job..." - forget it. It won't work for many different reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0sHe4q613s

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

I have big surprise for you. This "damage" was repaired in 124 days. By far more damage than OP. Boat "broke" in half! And if someone thinks that boat in OP has more damage - let's cut it in half, so damage will be comparable!
Just like I said - if it starts "I have full time job..." - forget it. It won't work for many different reasons.

Guess what, I'm not surprised at all, but there are several big differences between this job and the Lagoon.

1. The boat was carefully cut in half. That is hugely different from a boat that is smashed open. Cutting doesn't impact the all the connected structures, cause other damage (often hidden) or delamination in all the surrounding glass. Also leaves nice, straight edges to work with.

2. Cutting can be planned to carefully work with and around the the structural parts of the boat as well as cabinet work and other interior bits.

3. That owner built the boat so 1. knows every stick and board on the boat and 2. has experience doing the work required.

4. This boat was never sunk or wet inside.

5. From all appearances this guy worked full time, every day just on the boat. Working full time, 5-6 days a week, 8-10 hours a day vs after work and weekends, multiply the time needed by at least 5, more likely 6-8 or 10 or more.

[44'cruisingcat]

A boat I repaired a few years back: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ld-103165.html

Much worse damage to the hull, repaired for far less than the insured value, and the surveyor couldn't tell which hull had been damaged.

There was usually two working on the boat, and the shed was very cheap. Took about 6 months actual working time.

Notably though, there wasn't much water damage inside the boat, it was never flooded with sea water, although some saltwater splash damage did occur. Some electronics needed replacing, most did not. Two new motors were fitted.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

A boat I repaired a few years back: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ld-103165.html

Much worse damage to the hull, repaired for far less than the insured value, and the surveyor couldn't tell which hull had been damaged.

There was usually two working on the boat, and the shed was very cheap. Took about 6 months actual working time.

Notably though, there wasn't much water damage inside the boat, it was never flooded with sea water, although some saltwater splash damage did occur. Some electronics needed replacing, most did not. Two new motors were fitted.

Yeah, I remember that boat as well, it appeared in other posts before. Another perfect example what can be done. I remember that you've mentioned surveyor's question after repair was complete - "which hull was damaged"?

Originally Posted by skipmac

1. The boat was carefully cut in half. That is hugely different from a boat that is smashed open. Cutting doesn't impact the all the connected structures, cause other damage (often hidden) or delamination in all the surrounding glass. Also leaves nice, straight edges to work with.

That actually made me laugh. Let's CAREFULLY cut that Lagoon in half in damaged area and remove 5 ft section with all damaged parts altogether. Will it make repair easier?